Ridiculous comments and claims made by City Councillors

[Skeezix]

Nobody has made an argument on why tax rates should be based on a percentage of property value. If housing prices double in Toronto next year, are Toronto homeowners being undertaxed because the mill rate is that much lower now? If house prices fall by 90% next year, are Toronto homeowners now way overtaxed because the mill rate is sky-high?

Nobody here is saying that tax rates should be based on a percentage of property values. I don't think anyone is defending property tax as a good way to raise the overwhelming bulk of funds for an entire level of government. I think what people are saying (at least I am), is that actual dollars paid, particularly when it is based on a "representative" (ha) example of a two-storey detached home with two-car garage, is a profoundly dumb and misleading way of measuring comparative tax impacts.

And if all residential property values in Toronto double in the next year, or decrease by 90% in the same timeframe, with no corresponding changes to property values elsewhere in the GTA, then we can talk about your scenario. Meanwhile, let's not waste time on that.

 

[Freedom]

House prices in Toronto have doubled over, what, the past 5 years? Has the cost of providing services doubled over those same 5 years? Of course not.

Hence, if you want to say that Toronto pays too little property tax, compare the real dollars that a household pays. Also, Toronto should be able to provide services for cheaper than more rural areas due to density and scale so my expectation would be that Toronto has lower real dollar property taxes than most municipalities in Ontario.

 

[DSC]

House prices in Toronto have doubled over, what, the past 5 years? Has the cost of providing services doubled over those same 5 years? Of course not.

Hence, if you want to say that Toronto pays too little property tax, compare the real dollars that a household pays. Also, Toronto should be able to provide services for cheaper than more rural areas due to density and scale so my expectation would be that Toronto has lower real dollar property taxes than most municipalities in Ontario.

I suggest you read the very useful Torontoist piece referenced above - it explains how tax rates are set. Nobody is suggesting that property tax rates should be a % of the value. The point is that people living in TO certainly pay less property tax than many other people in the GTA (or elsewhere) and if we expect others to pay for some of the things we enjoy in our City we need to be able to show that we are 'paying our fair share'. (And yes, it should be cheaper to provide some services if there is a higher population density but density also make some things (like subways) more appropriate/necessary.)

 

[Freedom]

DSC, I understand how property taxes are set. The theme of this thread has been that Toronto taxes are too low, but the arguments I've seen have been based on a % of value basis, not real dollars. In order to corroborate the argument that Toronto taxes are too low, how do the real dollar values of property taxes in Toronto compare to other municipalities? This is not an analysis that I've seen and it's critical to your argument.

 

[jje1000]

Always hate it when councillors intervene in projects in other councillors' wards. Minnon-Wong's killing of Jarvis was the same.

Yonge Street project in North York might become casualty of budget debate

A 24-20 vote in favour of a Councillor David Shiner motion has thrown a wrench in a community plan to remake a stretch of Yonge St. from Sheppard to Finch Aves., including the addition of bike lanes.

[...]

Shiner, whose Ward 24 runs south to Finch, strongly disputes that. He — not Tory — spoke to a majority of councillors to get a pause on $4 million in design work on a project yet to go to council. Bikeways reducing vehicle lanes from three in each direction to two would worsen gridlock, flood side streets with overflow traffic and dangerously aim cyclists at a busy transit hub, he said.

“There are small businesses depending on the parking in front of them” that bike lanes would remove, he added in an interview. “Members of council don’t own the ward — this is a citywide issues, not a John Filion issue, and Yonge St. is really a highway.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...k-might-become-casualty-of-budget-debate.html

 

[Towered]

If I remember correctly, Shiner was also the myopically minded idiot that got the Fort York pedestrian bridge delayed by several years.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

DSC, I understand how property taxes are set. The theme of this thread has been that Toronto taxes are too low, but the arguments I've seen have been based on a % of value basis, not real dollars. In order to corroborate the argument that Toronto taxes are too low, how do the real dollar values of property taxes in Toronto compare to other municipalities? This is not an analysis that I've seen and it's critical to your argument.

Welcome to the forum. No one here -- unless it's been very recently -- has argued on a % of value basis, ever. In fact, it's 100% the opposite. I'd suggest you take a look back on the comparison of actual dollars vs. the rest of the GTA bar chart. Shows up about every 5 pages or so.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Globe & Mail actually published both charts in the Toronto Saturday section today, just to kind of show how ridiculous the detached 2-car argument is in this town.

 

[Palma]

If I remember correctly, Shiner was also the myopically minded idiot that got the Fort York pedestrian bridge delayed by several years.

who does this happen if its not even in their wards? How much influence can they have?

 

[DSC]

who does this happen if its not even in their wards? How much influence can they have?

In Council all Councillors (and Mayor) are equal. One out of 44.

 

[salsa]

Another pathetic vote at PWIC happened yesterday.

 

[Palma]

what does this mean? Did the motion pass?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Pedestrian advocates upset by delays to Toronto’s complete streets guidelines

“Complete streets” are “designed to be safe for all users, such as people who walk, bicycle, take transit or drive and people of varying ages and levels of ability.”

From link:

Toronto’s Public Works Committee asked city staff Tuesday to study more ways to “protect the silent majority of users.”

The vote, and the wording “silent majority,” drew criticism from pedestrian advocates who have followed the process for years.

According to the City of Toronto, complete streets are “designed to be safe for all users, such as people who walk, bicycle, take transit or drive and people of varying ages and levels of ability.”

Dylan Reid, the spokesperson for pedestrian advocacy group Walk Toronto, expressed disappointment in the committee’s decision, which sent the report back to the deputy city manager.

“The recommendations were the result of a long process with many stakeholders,” said Reid. He expressed frustration that the finalized report will see further delays for requests that he fears could undermine Toronto’s complete streets guidelines.

“The mention of ‘the silent majority’ is kind of perverse,” said Reid, who says it seems like a way to ignore the extensive evidence and consultations that support complete streets.

City staff started working on the complete streets guidelines in 2013 and consulted more than 80 groups of “stakeholders.” More than 40 events were held to solicit public feedback.

Coun. Stephen Holyday, who moved the package of requests, told Metro that while he respects the city staff’s work on the guidelines, more needs to be done.

“I support the aspirational notion of complete streets,” he told Metro.

But he added that “it’s a process that we’re just not finished” and needs more study on the practicalities.

As an example, he said, the proposed guidelines don’t reflect the Etobicoke street he lives on, and his neighbours would be upset if guidelines were implemented over their objections.

“I am not convinced that every street has to have a sidewalk,” he said, adding that, with constrained space and competing transportation methods, the city must set priorities that reflect how the street is used.

One request the committee passed 5 to 1 asked for “a decision-making framework and metrics that protect the silent majority of users and provide a balance between localized needs and desires.”

I'm guessing that Councillor Holyday wants to say, "Won't someone think about the automobiles!" The 905ers may side with him. Why is his "silent majority" different from the majority of us?

 

[pman]

Pedestrian advocates upset by delays to Toronto’s complete streets guidelines

“Complete streets” are “designed to be safe for all users, such as people who walk, bicycle, take transit or drive and people of varying ages and levels of ability.”

From link:





I'm guessing that Councillor Holyday wants to say, "Won't someone think about the automobiles!" The 905ers may side with him. Why is his "silent majority" different from the majority of us?

I support anything to rebuild our streets to be more friendly to pedestrians and cyclists, and to expedite surface TTC vehicles. But I'm afraid that the majority of people in this city might want it to be more like a sub-arctic Phoenix or Dallas than a sub-arctic Barcelona or Melbourne. They vote for these bozos on Council, after all.

 

[Bradley Libralesso]

I support anything to rebuild our streets to be more friendly to pedestrians and cyclists, and to expedite surface TTC vehicles. But I'm afraid that the majority of people in this city might want it to be more like a sub-arctic Phoenix or Dallas than a sub-arctic Barcelona or Melbourne. They vote for these bozos on Council, after all.

I agree. To me the lack of pedestrian friendly areas in Toronto has made no sense. Perhaps in the past when there was less people, the suburban design was ok because there was less traffic. Now though it's so arduous to get anywhere, and walking is not an option in many areas; especially in the winter which is surprise surprise, half our year.