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Report on racialized bias by Toronto Police (particular to excessive force)

As for being held to a higher standard, why shouldn't all citizens aim for common decency in public? Why is it we only expect decency from a select few?

That's a red herring - no one said anything but all citizen shouldn't aim for common decency - at the crux of the matter is that not all citizens are empowered by the law to use violence - and understand the circumstances and limits as to when violence can legitimately be used. With power comes responsibility - violating that not only breaks the law, but violates public trust of the institutions that uphold the law. It has nothing to do expectation of decency - it has to do with the expectations that those with the power will use it in a responsible and legal manner in service of society.

Do you think metting out extra judicial justice is "common decency" (nevermind trying to cover up the tracks after the fact)? I most certainly do not.

AoD
 
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cops are never off duty? You really think that is a good look for the city? Exhausted, worn out, burnt out and never allowed to tap out? Cops are human beings just like everybody else. As for being held to a higher standard, why shouldn't all citizens aim for common decency in public? Why is it we only expect decency from a select few?

Of course we should strive for common decency; that's part of what a civil society is about. But this is different. That discussion is about a group of citizens who are specifically empowered to do things the rest of the population is not, and depend on the trust of that population to be effective. To do that, they are (hopefully/supposedly) specifically selected, trained and supervised. The police are authorized to use force, but only that which is necessary to exercise their authority.

Certainly, biffing somebody upside the head for running a stop sign is cheaper than writing a ticket - which invokes administrative processing, the court system, etc., etc. and obviously more immediate to the violation, but it ain't right.
 
^Well, to be fair, the egregious incidence of said stop signs isn't right either. Not least because of the sheer inefficiency in running internal combustion engine-powered vehicles like that. So, at that point, is it worse to be huffing unnecessary fumes or should we all as well get 'biffed' for doing the right thing, ecologically-speaking?
 
IDC what this sh#t slinger‘s race is, but if he’s not a citizen, I want him deported after his conviction.

If I’d have done this crime, I would kick my own rear end to my country of origin, even though I left the UK almost 45 years ago and could claim Canada made me the poop chucker I am today.
 
If you want to live in a country that deports convicted criminals, go to Australia. I say that BTW as a newly- minted Australian permanent resident, so I’m taking my own advice. Canada would never have the balls or the concern for its citizens’ welfare to do anything like what you suggest.

 
If you want to live in a country that deports convicted criminals, go to Australia. I say that BTW as a newly- minted Australian permanent resident, so I’m taking my own advice. Canada would never have the balls or the concern for its citizens’ welfare to do anything like what you suggest.

It is ironic given that Australia was a British penal colony.
 
Report out this morning from the Human Right Commission having poured over SIU data from 2010-2017.

Many facts and figures out, but the overall messaging is clear, that black Torontonians are vastly over represented in use of force cases, and the more serious the level of force, the more disproportionate the black community's over representation.

Responding to an old post, but I just wanted to say that that HRC 'report' was complete gutter trash. I would ask are black males not vastly over represented in crime, violence and murder incidents in Toronto/GTA? If the answer is yes, then how is it not logical that they would also be vastly over represented in use of force cases?

And specifically with gun crime:

2014 - 177 shootings, 242 victims
2019 - 492 shootings, 771 victims


Is anyone not concerned about these numbers or that in 2016 when the number of shooting incidents doubled in number it hasn't gone back down since and we've averaged about 400 shootings the past few years until 2019 where it neared 500?

I'm pretty damn sure that everyone knows who's committing like 95% of these shootings and are also the victims in most of these incidents as well. So WHY WOULDN'T police spend more resources in targeting those groups of people involved to get them off the streets?

I don't think anyone could fail to conclude there is a level of systemic bias at work, and that the level involved, as at 2017 is well and truly disappointing, particularly that it does not seem to be on the decline.

There isn't much 'systemic bias', only certain groups of people who continually commit extremely high rates of crime, violence and murder and then when police try and crack down on them, they cry racism and bias etc. instead of doing the smart thing and admitting that their communities have serious issues and that they'll do everything possible to help police to stamp out crime and violence in their neighborhoods.

I honestly wish the police and especially our political leaders had the courage to release race based crime data so that there wouldn't be anymore hiding as to who was committing the most or least crime in Toronto/GTA and we could see the true scope of the problem and then get those communities that are most affected by crime and violence to actively help instead of staying silent and/or blaming everyone but themselves for their problems. If they did that, this problem could've been dramatically reduced eons ago instead of getting worse and worse because everyone is afraid of being called 'racist' for simply identifying and dealing with the reality that exists.
 
There isn't much 'systemic bias', only certain groups of people who continually commit extremely high rates of crime, violence and murder and then when police try and crack down on them, they cry racism and bias etc. instead of doing the smart thing and admitting that their communities have serious issues and that they'll do everything possible to help police to stamp out crime and violence in their neighborhoods.
I appreciate that you want police to fish where the fish are, but the bycatch is massive.
 
Responding to an old post, but I just wanted to say that that HRC 'report' was complete gutter trash. I would ask are black males not vastly over represented in crime, violence and murder incidents in Toronto/GTA? If the answer is yes, then how is it not logical that they would also be vastly over represented in use of force cases?

You're exhibiting a worrying trend in your posts, pontificating without evidence and doing so in a way that demeans or devalues groups of people other than you/yours.

You were at with pedestrians the other week, now black people.

Perhaps you might consider taking the time to think how it would read to you if the report above talked about disproportionate use of force or over-policing against the group you're a part of; then to read, that lots of other people who look like you may be committing crimes, so the police illegally beating them isn't really a problem.....would make you feel.

And specifically with gun crime:

2014 - 177 shootings, 242 victims
2019 - 492 shootings, 771 victims


Is anyone not concerned about these numbers or that in 2016 when the number of shooting incidents doubled in number it hasn't gone back down since and we've averaged about 400 shootings the past few years until 2019 where it neared 500?

Relevant to this discussion how? Of course, everyone here would like to see fewer shootings, though again, the key is to measure 'rate' (per capita) instances of crime, not the absolute number, seeing as we have a rapidly growing population.

But that is not the point of this thread.

I'm pretty damn sure that everyone knows who's committing like 95% of these shootings and are also the victims in most of these incidents as well. So WHY WOULDN'T police spend more resources in targeting those groups of people involved to get them off the streets?

Really, you are, are you? 95%? So, there were 76 homicides last year, and by implication of that number you believe 72 were committed by the same demographic group, very clearly in your mind, black people.

Any evidence of that? A disproportionate number would surely be a reasonable statement. But 95%? Right, you substantially diminished any credibility you had, which wasn't much.

There isn't much 'systemic bias', only certain groups of people who continually commit extremely high rates of crime, violence and murder and then when police try and crack down on them, they cry racism and bias etc. instead of doing the smart thing and admitting that their communities have serious issues and that they'll do everything possible to help police to stamp out crime and violence in their neighborhoods.

No proof, again. Not one citation. Not distinction offered between race as a correlation and economic class as a correlation. Sigh.

I honestly wish the police and especially our political leaders had the courage to release race based crime data so that there wouldn't be anymore hiding as to who was committing the most or least crime in Toronto/GTA and we could see the true scope of the problem and then get those communities that are most affected by crime and violence to actively help instead of staying silent and/or blaming everyone but themselves for their problems

First, that's a serious run-on sentence. I'm not normally the grammar police around here, but as you've taxed my patience quite thoroughly, I am now.

Second........

You notice how I've been harping on and on about citations and evidence............there might be a reason.


As per that page, which you would get on your first page of any google search on 'race-based data' and Toronto Police; data collection begins this month with publication to begin no later than next year.
 
I appreciate that you want police to fish where the fish are, but the bycatch is massive.

Of course intially the 'bycatch' will be large and I don't think its avoidable if you really want to be serious about significantly lowering crime, violence and especially gun crime. That's what we've been doing for decades now where we're half assing everything because doing more means the very people you're trying to help get offended and angry and you have to pull back because apparently hurt feelings matter more to certain people than lowering the number of shootings, stabbings, injuries, murder and general bad behavior that mostly affect them. Then we wait for the next wave of shootings, stabbings and deaths and for the same people to cry for help again. Rinse and repeat over and over while nothing really gets done.

If these people were serious about stopping this cycle once and for all they would do whatever it takes which means helping police as much as possible as witnesses, ratting out where criminals are hiding among them and not getting angry when there's a large police presence in the neighborhood that may stop and question people randomly. If you make your neighborhoods inhospitable to criminals, they either stop or be more careful in committing crime or they get caught. There are plenty of neighborhoods in the GTA where people lookout for each other and report the crimes they see because they want to keep their communities safe and mostly crime free. Then you have others who do the exact opposite and you see the difference in results.

The bottom line is of course its going to be tough going in the beginning, but after a while when the criminals know that communities aren't going to stay silent and/or hide their asses anymore, then its up to them as to whether they stop committing crime, move elsewhere or simply get caught eventually. Whatever the case, crime will go down as a result when these communities can finally decide to responsibility for their problems and do everything possible to fix things.
 
You were at with pedestrians the other week, now black people.

I wasn't demeaning pedestrians. I was simply wondering how a normal, mentally fine, non-blind person can get ambushed by a large several thousand or more pounds vehicle and be struck by it if they were fully paying attention and were aware of their surroundings so that they could have the information to make the right choice as to when to cross a road.

Short of a car driving onto a sidewalk and hitting someone which is extremely rare, you're not going to get hit by simply standing on the sidewalk indefinitely until you see the safest opportunity to cross.

Perhaps you might consider taking the time to think how it would read to you if the report above talked about disproportionate use of force or over-policing against the group you're a part of; then to read, that lots of other people who look like you may be committing crimes, so the police illegally beating them isn't really a problem.....would make you feel.

That's the point. There wouldn't be 'over-policing' or 'disproportionate use of force' if the people in question weren't so violent, aggressive and criminal to begin with and most of whom hate any kind of authority figure that dares to tell them what to do.

Put it this way. If the black crime rate was as low as the asian crime rate in the GTA, do you honestly think they would get extra policing for the hell of it because they still want to keep harassing black people? OR MAYBE JUST MAYBE, if miraculously crime and violence among these people dropped so dramatrically low that police wouldn't just direct their resources to fighting crime elsewhere that now has more importance? I think any reasonable person would know the answer to that one.

Relevant to this discussion how? Of course, everyone here would like to see fewer shootings, though again, the key is to measure 'rate' (per capita) instances of crime, not the absolute number, seeing as we have a rapidly growing population.

Its relevant because the overwhelming amounts of violent crime and murder is coming from the same groups of people that have been leading the pack in that department for decades now. This isn't spread out equally among all races/ethnic groups. This is concentrated into one group mostly and everyone knows this.

Really, you are, are you? 95%? So, there were 76 homicides last year, and by implication of that number you believe 72 were committed by the same demographic group, very clearly in your mind, black people.

I'm saying at least 95% of the shootings that we have every year in the city involve one group of people either as the perpetrator, victim or both. And the same goes for most under 18 violent crime which probably involves the same group of people as well. Just look at the 'known to police' 15 year old who shot dead an innocent kid the other day. If you were a betting person, I think you would know who you'd bet on being involved to give you the highest chance of winning that bet.

As per that page, which you would get on your first page of any google search on 'race-based data' and Toronto Police; data collection begins this month with publication to begin no later than next year.

That's great. Can't wait. I hope they release super detailed statistics so no one can pretend anymore that some groups of people aren't much more criminal and consistently dangerous to the public than others and that's why they require more attention rather than simply crying 'systemic racism'.
 
I'm saying at least 95% of the shootings that we have every year in the city involve one group of people either as the perpetrator, victim or both. And the same goes for most under 18 violent crime which probably involves the same group of people as well. Just look at the 'known to police' 15 year old who shot dead an innocent kid the other day. If you were a betting person, I think you would know who you'd bet on being involved to give you the highest chance of winning that bet.

The young man killed the other day wasn't black, I don't recall the 'race' of the 15 year old accused having been given out.

As to victims, there certainly are a disproportionate number who are black; but a quick look at the faces of the victims of Toronto's unsolved murders suggest the number is far less than 95%.


I would appreciate you're ceasing from making any further posts until you learn to support your views with evidence.

Your lazy. You make assumptions, you just take for granted that your right, and the facts be damned.

Look stuff up! Confirm your opinions with evidence!

That's great. Can't wait. I hope they release super detailed statistics so no one can pretend anymore that some groups of people aren't much more criminal and consistently dangerous to the public than others and that's why they require more attention rather than simply crying 'systemic racism'.

This quote illustrates that you don't even understand what systemic racism is.....

Let me help:

From here: http://www.aclrc.com/forms-of-racism

Systemic Racism includes the policies and practices entrenched in established institutions, which result in the exclusion or promotion of designated groups. It differs from overt discrimination in that no individual intent is necessary. (Toronto Mayor's Committee on Community and Race Relations. Race Relations: Myths and Facts)
 
Its relevant because the overwhelming amounts of violent crime and murder is coming from the same groups of people that have been leading the pack in that department for decades now. This isn't spread out equally among all races/ethnic groups. This is concentrated into one group mostly and everyone knows this.
You say groups and then one group. Which is it?

And what is that group? It can't just be skin colour. It's almost certainly also focused on age and gender, and then income, education, family type, ethnicity/country of origin, gang affiliation, etc. If you want play at demographer you can't just go by skin colour, otherwise you’re just lazily applying the superficial.

I'd say most white collar crime is done by whites, but having the police watch me as a white person more closely than others won't help the investigation at all. Demographics can be a powerful tool, you can drill down to nearly the exact commonalities of the target group and thus keep the bycatch small, but you need to dig. I used to be a customs inspector at Pearson in the 1990s, and we had profiles on who to target, but it wasn't race, but was behaviour and associations.
 
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