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Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

lead82 said:
The train capacity on VIA is not very high. On the Toronto-Montreal route its usually 3 economy cars and 1 business car per train. While VIA can't compete wi flying in terms of flight time, it can compete on convenience of downtown to downtown travel.

I find that the VIA could be made more profitable if it provided longer trains on weekend trips and charged less. There is a big leisure market demand leaving on Friday evening and returning Sunday evening. Those trains are usually full and costs a lot more than advertised one way $44 to Montreal. I think a lot more people would take the train if costs were lower slightly lower and there were more trains. I'm not sure it would require a lot of extra subsidy. Something as simple as adding extra cars to a train to get more people. You don't even need to provide any additional staff as most people bring food onboard since VIAs economy food options are awful. I believe that VIA actually makes money on he Windsor-Quebec corridor and it's those northern Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba routes mandated by the government that are money losers and require a subsidy.
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We force airlines to pay for the leases (including land) of the airports. They also pay (or we pay via the ticket) for security and Nav Can. So basically full price with little to no subsidy.

Yet we are subsidizing a direct competitor when it is express service to Montreal or Ottawa. Similar time, similar service. I have an issue with giving public money to compete against a private service.

If the airlines were offering inferior service, I agree. And if HSR is built, airlines would have inferior service. But even then, you could argue that you are creating a monopoly on Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal service and those people that are disadvantages (airlines) need to be compensated for their loss of the revenue.
 
People often forget that Via IS improving service, just very slowly and gradually. The Ottawa-Kingston-Toronto route is constantly being improved with more and more trains being added. Just last month they added another set of round trips on Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays, and Mondays. We're now at 98 trains a week between the two cities (34 of which are express), whereas 3 years ago it was only 64 trains per week none of them express. And fares are going down too, you can now get Toronto-Kingston for as low as $30 at times, which never used to happen, ever. And ridership is up too, Ottawa-Kingston-Toronto ridership was 38% higher in 2013 than it was in 2012.
 
muller877 said:
We force airlines to pay for the leases (including land) of the airports. They also pay (or we pay via the ticket) for security and Nav Can. So basically full price with little to no subsidy.

Yet we are subsidizing a direct competitor when it is express service to Montreal or Ottawa. Similar time, similar service. I have an issue with giving public money to compete against a private service.
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Aviation pays for itself in Toronto and larger airports now, but the airports, navigation system, and Air Canada were all built with help of the government. Some places have privatized passenger rail but you can't really do that until the infrastructure has been built.
 
nfitz said:
The government hasn't been in the business of subsidizing transport between major cities for a long time (VIA's subsidy covers the non-profitable rural services, the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto services are generally run on a break-even basis).
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Actually roads are subsidized by the government. Only in the GTHA do roads pay for themselves, at least according to the Conference Board report from last year. An HSR system, according to the feasibility reports that have been done, would pay for itself. Even for the presumably less profitable section to London, the net costs would be quite low.

muller877 said:
We force airlines to pay for the leases (including land) of the airports. They also pay (or we pay via the ticket) for security and Nav Can. So basically full price with little to no subsidy.

Yet we are subsidizing a direct competitor when it is express service to Montreal or Ottawa. Similar time, similar service. I have an issue with giving public money to compete against a private service.

If the airlines were offering inferior service, I agree. And if HSR is built, airlines would have inferior service. But even then, you could argue that you are creating a monopoly on Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal service and those people that are disadvantages (airlines) need to be compensated for their loss of the revenue.
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Yes airline service would suffer on routes served by HSR, but of course that's the point. HSR offers service that's far more efficient, reliable, convenient, and comfortable than flying. It offers more benefits in connecting cities together, serves downtowns directly, doesn't pollute nearly as much, and is far less affected by the weather. And anywhere that HSR is built, the public shows a clear preference for trains over flying.

And no, airlines don't need to be compensated. Developers weren't compensated when they protected the Oak Ridges Moraine, towns aren't compensated when they build bypasses, etc. Ontario benefits greatly from reducing our reliance on flying between cities that are relatively close together.
 
MisterF said:
Actually roads are subsidized by the government.
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I was discussing rail. Elsewhere I did mention that the roads were subsidized. As has air travel at times. And has been pointed out by others, VIA subsidy on corridor services has significantly increased in recent years.
 
MisterF said:
Yes airline service would suffer on routes served by HSR, but of course that's the point. HSR offers service that's far more efficient, reliable, convenient, and comfortable than flying. It offers more benefits in connecting cities together, serves downtowns directly, doesn't pollute nearly as much, and is far less affected by the weather. And anywhere that HSR is built, the public shows a clear preference for trains over flying.

And no, airlines don't need to be compensated. Developers weren't compensated when they protected the Oak Ridges Moraine, towns aren't compensated when they build bypasses, etc. Ontario benefits greatly from reducing our reliance on flying between cities that are relatively close together.
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Depending on the route chosen, the HSR could directly (or in the case of Trudeau, nearly directly, and directly if an appropriate LINK-like system is built) serve all 3 major airports along the corridor. This could actually be a benefit for the airlines, since they could partner with VIA to take some of their short haul route pressure off, allowing them to use those gates for longer international flights instead. A partnership between VIA and StarAlliance for example could be mutually beneficial.

This benefit will be greatest for the mid-point communities though, like Kingston, Kitchener, or London (and to a certain extent Windsor). Book the HSR trip to the nearest airport along with the flight to whatever your destination is. That way there isn't a 3-4hr drive at the start and end of your trip, not to mention parking.
 
This is one of the problems with HSR..........they take so long to get off the ground that the government that announces it will never have to be the one that actually pays for it.
 
ssiguy2 said:
This is one of the problems with HSR..........they take so long to get off the ground that the government that announces it will never have to be the one that actually pays for it.
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Normally you would think that wouldn't be that much of an issue. Since the government announcing it can stiff the next government with a hole in their budget or a huge commitment to ask, pissing off a lot of voters. Never understood why HSR doesn't move forward under those political considerations.

I've also never understood why the dumbass provincial PCs don't jump on this one if they don't really like transit. It's a vote getter in several smaller centre and can be spread out over a decade and might just get the federal conservatives onboard too.
 
kEiThZ said:
I've also never understood why the dumbass provincial PCs don't jump on this one if they don't really like transit. It's a vote getter in several smaller centre and can be spread out over a decade and might just get the federal conservatives onboard too.
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Hope this helps.
 
I think one might be overestimating the attractiveness of HSR to the electorate in small towns - and push comes to shove I wouldn't doubt for one moment that a local hospital expansion or whatnot is a bigger carrot than a faster route to gawd forbid, Toronto.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
I think one might be overestimating the attractiveness of HSR to the electorate in small towns - and push comes to shove I wouldn't doubt for one moment that a local hospital expansion or whatnot is a bigger carrot than a faster route to gawd forbid, Toronto.

AoD
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+1

Especially when considering that on any given route a fair number of potential passengers (outside of Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa) would have to drive to a station that might be a fair distance from where they live. Hardly a convenient option, and less likely to appeal than say a new hospital/school/community centre within which I expect most people can see an immediate "that's good for me" angle.

Outside of the Toronto-Montreal corridor, maybe K-W, this whole thing is a non-starter.
 
nfitz said:
Given HSR doesn't stop in small towns, I'd think that building HSR through small town, might not help the government that builds it!
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Pardon my Toronto-centric perspective on size. I meant "small towns" as in cities like London or KW or any locale with intended stops that is not Toronto.

AoD
 
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