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Rail Deck Park (?, ?, ?)

This may be why the gist of statements are to the effect of "We (TTR, CN) are quietly working with the City on this".

There may indeed be a way to *negotiate* a reasonable outcome from this, but Tory, Keesmaat, Cressy et al had best learn to keep their mouths shut until they know what they're gambling with, and by what rules. Again..."Tory should know better" considering his time at the helm of Rogers. Perhaps he thinks he's 'Ted reincarnate'?

Two that the press is reporting. And quite possibly more behind the scenes, one wonders how many from legal eagles telling the City how to tie their shoelaces properly and wipe their noses?

Here's betting that some of the City's legal staff are having conniptions...

Except you probably won't even hear a "working quietly with the city on this" public statement without the issue being brought forth to the public agenda in the first place. Like - if they are working quietly with the city, they would have sold apparently sold the strata rights? They are working quietly indeed. The public wouldn't even know about the latter if not for the public announcement of the park scheme and the subsequent coverage by journalists on said scheme.

AoD
 
Except you probably won't even hear a "working quietly with the city on this" public statement without the issue being brought forth to the public agenda in the first place. Like - if they are working quietly with the city, they would have sold apparently sold the strata rights? They are working quietly indeed. The public wouldn't even know about the latter if not for the public announcement of the park scheme and the subsequent coverage by journalists on said scheme.

AoD
And we wouldn't know the world is round unless informed by the press? The point is being lost. The announcement of the City working to build a deck park is real news, and they could then add: "We are working behind the scenes to clarify legal issues, we have our legal department and others' working on this to do all we can to make this happen".

Instead...and I repeat...this is SmartyPantsTrack all over again...Tory and Staff Dep't Head Apologists come out blaring, *even in the face of glaring facts otherwise* that this is a sure thing, because 'we say so'.

Well surprise....

Would we all have been in the dark about SmarmTrack unless the press pointed out that John (Hizzoner) von Munchausen was out of his depth?
 
And we wouldn't know the world is round unless informed by the press? The point is being lost. The announcement of the City working to build a deck park is real news, and they could then add: "We are working behind the scenes to clarify legal issues, we have our legal department and others' working on this to do all we can to make this happen".

Instead...and I repeat...this is SmartyPantsTrack all over again...Tory and Staff Dep't Head Apologists come out blaring, *even in the face of glaring facts otherwise* that this is a sure thing, because 'we say so'.

Well surprise....

Would we all have been in the dark about SmarmTrack unless the press pointed out that John (Hizzoner) von Munchausen was out of his depth?

Who actually believed this, as proposed, is a "sure thing", other than the most gullible? The whole proposal is so exploratory that I consider it more as a signalling of intent (or perhaps a hint of proposals to come and the city's bargaining position) more than anything else.

As to Smarttrack - well, again buyer beware - considering how the province and the city "worked together" behind the scheme and rolled it all into basically RER with stations where there are development potential (which is what he ended up selling - or perhaps was his original intent). Those who have followed that file can track who the players were and their connections - it was already pre-positioned game.

Clearly I am a firm believer against the notion of "accidents", short term incompetence or lack of awareness in politics (unless your name is the-one-who-shall-not-be-named).

AoD
 
Who actually believed this is a "sure thing", other than the most gullible?
Well Alvin...lol...you could start with a number of posters in this very string on that one.

The name 'Goebbels' comes to mind when you look at certain political figures. Trump isn't that distant from us.

The whole proposal is so exploratory that I consider it more as a signalling of intent (or perhaps a hint of proposals to come and the city's bargaining position) more than anything else.
Indeed, I do too, albeit I initially allowed myself to get excited about it, until reality took the gloss off of it and the bug started to dehydrate. It's looking pretty weak at this point. You can polish a turd, make it all shiny, but it's still a turd.

As to Smarttrack - well, again buyer beware - considering how the province and the city "worked together" behind the scheme and rolled it all into basically RER with stations where there are development potential (which is what he ended up selling - or perhaps was his original intent). Those who have followed that file can track who the players were and their connections - it was already pre-positioned game.
And Tory *is still* in denial over what's needed to make it happen. There's the slight problem of his having to announce the basis of the City's share of financing it.

As for TartTrack (which I fully support in principle, btw!) there still isn't a workable plan. It's RER made over to fit His Majesty's image (matches brown shoes). Trouble is, Tory still hasn't the financing that has to be announced by next month for the Wynne-ers to push ahead on it. There's the small matter of paying for half the cost of the AddedSmartness stations.
 
Clearly I am a firm believer against the notion of "accidents", short term incompetence or lack of awareness in politics (unless your name is the-one-who-shall-not-be-named).

Well, there is a case to be made that particular politicians may habitually jump into the fray without having sussed out enough of the details.

Negotiations happen in confidence, and one can't draw adverse inferences if they begin or stay there. That's where they belong.

The question is, what mandate does a Mayor or City Staff have to advance and advocate a proposal, and at what point are they required to declare their involvement in discussions, as a matter of transparency and integrity. And how much of the history and origin of this proposal ought to be on the public record.

It would not surprise me if one or more developers had their eye on this tract of air with an eye to its development potential. CN/TTR may have been quietly biding their time and letting potential suitors make their case, watching for the "right time and price" without having made any commitment. That's how development works.

It's also possible that the City became aware of a deal getting close to being made, realised that this was the last downtown tract there would ever be, and did some quick study on how to redirect it towards a public use. It's possible that one or more of these "suitors" may have seen their courtship-in-progress going down the tube because of the City's sudden competing interest in this tract.... and put their competing foot forward. Whether a transfer of rights had been executed, or handshakes exchanged, or just meetings concluded positively, doesn't change the dynamics here....it may just change the price.

If what we have seen is just the City (political or staff) putting it to the floor to get in ahead of another proposal, then good on them. The park is a good idea and I hope it prevails. However, as others have noted, it's not going to be inexpensive, and haste and desperation make for a poor bargaining position. Public and Council oversight is critical so that prudence prevails. The City can't afford this "at all costs".

On the other hand, if this began as a developer's proposal with the developer seeking some hefty variances from the Official Plan, and the Park is just a smokescreen to mitigate what would otherwise be controversial planning decisions, then we have been misled and I would cry foul. None of the press reports I have read make any mention of partial development on this land - the inference has always been that this is a cash deal that gets the City the air rights and a park is all that emerges. There is a much greater need for politicians and City staff to clarify immediately if this kind of discussion is happening, and to explain what deals or concessions they are making to move this forward.

- Paul
 
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It all fell into place when I read about the ten oversize condo towers.
This isn't Tory delivering a great public space for the city .... It's about a bunch of greedy developers scheming how to build on those tracks ..... And Tory falling for it hook line and sinker. The City needs to drive a really hard bargain here - and if the OMB intervenes, it's time to ask why we need the OMB.

- Paul
time to ask? are you serious. That question has been asked for how long now?
 
time to ask? are you serious. That question has been asked for how long now?
The more I read on the Arbutus decision, the more I believe the OMB...the *Province* has no legal status in this case as long as it is a functioning and fully federal compliant corridor.
https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/16/index.do

The important facet to note in the Arbutus case, the SCC ruled on *Provincial Law* as per the Vancouver Charter, rough analogy being the the City of Toronto Act under Ontario law. The OMB has no authority to rule on anything *directly* concerning the use of the USRC land...or the presently contentious aspect, the air-rights above it.

I'm dabbling when I have time on some of the arguments presented in the Arbutus case by CPR. They lost their case in the Arbutus decision because the land was no longer a functioning railway line, and CPR are a federally regulated railway, subject to the federal acts pertaining. The Province of BC accorded them that corridor on the condition of it being used for railway purposes. As soon as that ceased, the terms of the land transfer no longer applied, federal law no longer applied, and local zoning bylaws did.

That won't happen in the case of the USRC...perhaps not even if it ceased to be used as a rail corridor! (I really don't know, it would be a fascinating legal discussion). I think there will be a court ruling on the USRC air-rights at some point, the shid's gonna hit the fan sooner or later, that tranche is so incredibly valuable, but it won't be the Province that hears the case save to rule on admissibility at the provincial level. It will be heard in Federal Court. And perhaps it should be, sooner than later.

I even question whether Metrolinx could/should propose to build an elevated line of perhaps four tracks over the present tracks to solve the capacity problem at Union? The irony is that as a federally regulated rail operation (by the Province's own choice under the Metrolinx Act, IIRC) GO Transit could thumb their nose at the City and provide much better transportation access as is required by their mandate by doing so. It would be one of the cheapest options to address the present saturated capacity, but I'm digressing.

That concept is no more far-fetched than the present City Hall spiel on their almighty omnipotent sword.
 
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The question is, what mandate does a Mayor or City Staff have to advance and advocate a proposal, and at what point are they required to declare their involvement in discussions, as a matter of transparency and integrity. And how much of the history and origin of this proposal ought to be on the public record.

Officially or unofficially? I mean, the city has a long history of mayors working to bring fruition to various development schemes, with or without blessing from council. Transparency is often wanting in that regard.

In any case, we've seen how JT works - given RER/East Harbour and the expose on The One. Why should one expect this to be any different necessarily?

AoD
 
Odd that they refuse to bury the Gardiner but want to bury the rail corridor.
Yeah...albeit that could be addressed with a retort on costs and doability. But the costs of tunnelling, let alone the geology allowing it, under or adjacent to Union Station are also iffy, very iffy. This ain't New York, Paris or Stockhom, albeit those three all have (with rare strata exceptions) excellent rock to tunnel through. Toronto doesn't, unless you go very deep. Whatever, the cost would be astronomical.

But it raises another scenario: Everyone realizing that would be an obscenely expensive way to solve the Union Station access constrictions.

So! TTR, CN and Metrolinx make a concession with the City: "OK, let's look at building a deck over the present trench, but part of that design/construction purpose has to satisfy our getting four more tracks over the present ones, and by-pass the Union shed to the south and merge with the present grade at around the Don River. These tracks will serve three new platforms above grade over the present by-pass tracks on the south side of Union. This 'elevated section' can then become contiguous with a deck-park at a later time in such a way as to allow segments of the park to pass under or over the elevated tracks".

Complicated? Quite. But consider decking over the trench with a tunnel underneath the trench! Vastly more complicated and an engineering nightmare. It could be done, but at what cost? If decking is to happen, then stone two or more birds with one kill! The 'double-decking' approach would than attract money from the Feds and Queen's Park. The deck won't be perfectly flat, but then, should it be that flat to begin with? Even footbridges where needed could pass over the elevated relief track to join the park-deck to the lake side.

Sigh...but then there's the Gardiner and Lakeshore Road too...errr...the scenario still works if a decked park spans those too...at least in part.
 
Who actually believed this, as proposed, is a "sure thing", other than the most gullible? The whole proposal is so exploratory that I consider it more as a signalling of intent (or perhaps a hint of proposals to come and the city's bargaining position) more than anything else.

I believe the roof of the new Barrie line stop (2 tracks only) will be accessible from the street level. That's about as far as phase 1 will go.
 
This sounds a lot like a greasy developer trying to make some quick money.

The proposed Craft Development has been around since the start of the year
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...eeds-to-work-with-developers/article31936604/

Marcus Gee's description certainly paints the Tory/Keesmaat initiative as a ship passing in the night relative to developers' proposals. But it also confirms that developers have had their eye on this land all along.

CN/TTR - if they still hold title - may be quite willing to work with the City in preference to private developers. However, you can be sure that they will cite the developers' proposals when they present their asking price.

So - it's a competition for a commercially valuable tract, like it or not, and it always had been.

Marcus Gee's point may well be valid - better for the City and developers to work together on a win-win project, rather than start a win-lose bidding war for it. However, given the spin that T/K have put on this proposal, it becomes a high-stakes negotiation..... politically, the park has to be paramount and not just something the developers squeeze in.

Or, the end product gets spun ridiculously...the park is only half a loaf, T/K put lipstick on it, and whatever goodies the developers extract get swept under the carpet. Compromise pleases no one, but it works.

- Paul
 

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