steveintoronto
Superstar
Uh huh.
And these are all planted on terra ferma too?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=roof...=7b3gV6LIIqjajwT6mr6QDg#imgrc=ncdSHIUU36eUaM:
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Rail Deck Park (?, ?, ?)
- Thread starter DSC
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And these are all planted on terra ferma too?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=roof...=7b3gV6LIIqjajwT6mr6QDg#imgrc=ncdSHIUU36eUaM:
bobbob911
Active Member
You keep posting pictures that are showing what I am saying... Look how they are all tiny trunk, "lollipop" trees in planter boxes. (Except for the banyan tree pic which seems unbelievable to me but who knows what the Chinese were able to come up with! 
)
By the way, I think that picture of the Aberdeen rooftop garden is an artist's rendering, not a photo. Here's what it actually looks like:
https://goo.gl/images/qbpaA1
)By the way, I think that picture of the Aberdeen rooftop garden is an artist's rendering, not a photo. Here's what it actually looks like:
https://goo.gl/images/qbpaA1
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Actually most of it is on deck - look at the Google map and you can see that there are trees of significant size directly above the rail line
Those don't look like lollipop trees in planter boxes to me.
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Northern Light
Superstar
For the sake of clarity.
The options of what can be grown depend on the volume and type of soil used.
Tree roots, even on large specimens can be as little as 3 feet deep.
Now I would describe 4-5 feet as more common.
I know of no species which ever put out roots greater than 10 ft (3M).
Most species have the majority of their roots close to the surface, and spread roughly to the outer edge of their canopy or just beyond.
This is why compaction, even from people walking over tree roots is such an issue, as it directly impairs the primary source of water/nutrients for the tree.
So how much soil would this deck park have? I don't know that a proposal has been drawn up; but large trees certainly could be feasible, if the structure is built to support their weight and that of the associated soils.
I'd be more concerned about soil quality and what rhizomes it contains, and the quality of the planting itself.
muller877
Senior Member
There are medium sized trees on decks. Just look at TD Center here. 30+ foot trees. You do have to select trees with low root systems and have sufficient soil....it all comes down to how much weight the deck is designed for.
The best rooftop park I have seen is in Shenzhen. Their civic center is built 2 stories up from the road network. They built a park and square over public buildings covering 4 blocks x 2 blocks (or so). It then merges with Lianhuashan Park (a hill with nature trails throughout) to make a huge green space.
Basically they connected a series of new buildings rooftops and an existing park on a hill to form a huge public space. And of course lots of staircases and escalators to get people to the park from the roads/subways.
The best rooftop park I have seen is in Shenzhen. Their civic center is built 2 stories up from the road network. They built a park and square over public buildings covering 4 blocks x 2 blocks (or so). It then merges with Lianhuashan Park (a hill with nature trails throughout) to make a huge green space.
Basically they connected a series of new buildings rooftops and an existing park on a hill to form a huge public space. And of course lots of staircases and escalators to get people to the park from the roads/subways.
bobbob911
Active Member
Alvin, my understanding is that the decked portion of Millenium park is, for the most part, the Pritzker pavillion area. If those trees around the Bean are planted on a concrete platform then I will concede that is an impressive feat - not likely to be duplicated on a Toronto budget though.
Northern Light, I agree with what you are saying, with one other caveat - if you force the roots close to the surface, and the surface is not "undisturbed soil" but is instead artificial, you have a *huge* problem with large trees uprooting in a wind storm. Its a safety issue. I have no idea the depth of soil required to do this but it would certainly be impractical across the entire surface. Maybe if they created some large dirt hills to grow trees on?
I'm not saying its not theoretically possible to grow large trees on artificial surfaces - given enough planning and maintenance, it is. You could also grow a tree on the International Space Station . The problem is that its extremely difficult (read: expensive) to do so and we certainly wouldn't see that happen in cost cutting Toronto.....
Northern Light, I agree with what you are saying, with one other caveat - if you force the roots close to the surface, and the surface is not "undisturbed soil" but is instead artificial, you have a *huge* problem with large trees uprooting in a wind storm. Its a safety issue. I have no idea the depth of soil required to do this but it would certainly be impractical across the entire surface. Maybe if they created some large dirt hills to grow trees on?
I'm not saying its not theoretically possible to grow large trees on artificial surfaces - given enough planning and maintenance, it is. You could also grow a tree on the International Space Station
. The problem is that its extremely difficult (read: expensive) to do so and we certainly wouldn't see that happen in cost cutting Toronto.....muller877
Senior Member
Hudson Yards deck (which is coincidentally about 20 acres) will cost US$721M
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...work-on-hudson-yards-rail-platform-in-january
Of course the Hudson Yards tracks are much busier than the Toronto train lines. The GO Train tracks can be shut down for hours at night so it would be less of a challenge than the Hudson Yards. And we aren't NYC in terms of cost. And the Hudson Yards cassions were also installed for the towers in this cost which we don't need. So I expect the Toronto rail deck would be cheaper than this.
There is a lot of terra firma that also can be used via retaining walls (e.g. the south side of Front). So the total deck should be a lot cheaper.
If they did a DBFM contract it would be interesting to see the final cost.
Now the rail companies know that the Hudson Yards air rights sold for $1b. So if city hall thinks strong arming the railways is a good way to start negotiating....you're putting their backs to a wall and of course they will come out swinging. Bad way to build the relationship at the start of a negotiation.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
They might not need stairs/escalators everywhere - the MTCC section probably will, but they might be able to get away with grading for the bit between around Blue Jays Way just casually looking at it.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Yeah...BobBob seems to have an agenda, and it's applied to other posters' points as well as mine. ("Parking lots" etc) and you and I and others may have differences on how this should/could be financed, but no-one other than BobBob doubts the do-ability of this. Even if it was "lollipop trees", it's still a hell of an improvement over the gaping chasm that now exists.
And not to mention: Trees in concrete planters lining our streets? Is that the ideal? No, but BobBob's claims beg credulity. Many streets are shaded by trees in concrete planters. Longevity is the issue for trees growing in such a way, not size, albeit some strains do far better/worse than others, a whole discussion for streetscaping in itself.
Would the entire deck be covered with trees? No, and no-one has even suggested that. What is do-able and preferable in my opinion is that *some* areas be thick with trees, others not. In the thick areas, soil depth can be increased. There's no shortage of trees growing over top of the Yonge subway in the Summerhill area. I was there just yesterday doing a distance walk with a great dog, and I specifically noted how lush and green the area is, much of it by developers who've built high-rise over top of the decked-over subway. (It was trench when built). Btw: Big Black Lab (he's un-neutered, built like a Pit Bull, one of the best behaved and gentle dogs I've ever known) and I walked down along Yellow Creek Ravine to the Don Valley, up to Pottery Rd, across, down the (technically closed) Don Valley path to waterfront, up Cherry and then onto the TTC before rush hour to get across town to take him make to his human. I have a very piqued interest in seeing a walkable, as well as cycleable city.
And for the record, where possible, dog was off-leash.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
To be fair we all have "agendas" - but assertions can and should be challenged. In any case, I am looking forward to see more analysis and design work.
Alvin, my understanding is that the decked portion of Millenium park is, for the most part, the Pritzker pavillion area. If those trees around the Bean are planted on a concrete platform then I will concede that is an impressive feat - not likely to be duplicated on a Toronto budget though.
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I'm not saying its not theoretically possible to grow large trees on artificial surfaces - given enough planning and maintenance, it is. You could also grow a tree on the International Space Station
If Toronto can afford to build the deck, it surely can afford to do this.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
lol...let me clarify: 'A peculiar agenda'. I was just using Google Streetview to check the trees on...wait for it..."Park Avenue" in NYC, over the four track main of the ex-NYCentral. That again was built as trench, and decked over later. No shortage of mature and prolific tree growth.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Here's a shot taken in June of this year, it got lusher after this even, with the Summerhill subway station included in the left of the picture to establish this growth being on top of the decked-over trench:
A reminder on Bobbob's initial claim:
Here's what's underneath:
The tunnel originally ended immediately north of the station at Summerhill Avenue and continued in open cut as far as Pleasant Boulevard, just before St. Clair, the next station. Various sections of this open cut were roofed over as the years passed, and since the early 1980s it has been entirely under cover, except when one block was opened to allow new construction above it. Passengers who look out from the train into the tunnel on this section can still see the sloping sides of the original cut, the stumps of lamp posts and trees, and the undersides of four bridges which still carry side streets over the line.
South of the station, the tunnel emerges to the surface at Rowanwood Drive. Originally the line surfaced at Price Portal, but a one-block section from Rowanwood Drive to Price Street was roofed over in 2002 for parking.
Covered original open-cut north of the station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_(TTC)
And before the decking:
A reminder on Bobbob's initial claim:
Here's what's underneath:
The tunnel originally ended immediately north of the station at Summerhill Avenue and continued in open cut as far as Pleasant Boulevard, just before St. Clair, the next station. Various sections of this open cut were roofed over as the years passed, and since the early 1980s it has been entirely under cover, except when one block was opened to allow new construction above it. Passengers who look out from the train into the tunnel on this section can still see the sloping sides of the original cut, the stumps of lamp posts and trees, and the undersides of four bridges which still carry side streets over the line.
South of the station, the tunnel emerges to the surface at Rowanwood Drive. Originally the line surfaced at Price Portal, but a one-block section from Rowanwood Drive to Price Street was roofed over in 2002 for parking.
Covered original open-cut north of the station
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_(TTC)
And before the decking:
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Presentation by John Livey:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-96501.pdf
From presentation:
And predictably, TTR got issues:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/comm/communicationfile-63032.pdf
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http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-96501.pdf
From presentation:
And predictably, TTR got issues:
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/comm/communicationfile-63032.pdf
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Can't say that I'm surprised. They're sitting on and under a goldmine, and what *really* doesn't help is the attitude of Keesmaat and Tory, (gist) "we want it all and want it our own way".
Tory, with his background at Rogers, should know better. That's not how it works. The approach has been so bizarre that I have to wonder if it isn't some kind of ruse?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Though honestly I am more inclined to tell them to buzz off - it hasn't been working for awhile now, and it's time to have a national discussion and review of railway lands and development rights associated with them. Like how many years have it been?
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