News   Jul 15, 2024
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Questions regarding "transit cabotage" and routes post subway extension

Since only Presto will be accepted at the new stations, would everyone have to tap off to get out of the station? Let's say someone from Eglinton West (Cedarvale) goes to York University, and doesn't use Presto to enter the subway, how would they exit the station? Are there fare gates just for exiting that open automatically? Of course, when fare gates are installed in every entrance and exit of the system (can serve as both) tapping on and off wouldn't be a problem, but what about now?

They are not currently requiring tap offs, when the extension opens I don't know if they will, but what I would do is make the tap offs not at the gate, but at a separate reader out side of the fare paid area that only riders transferring from GO or YRT would have to tap to refund their TTC fare, rather than inconveniencing everyone with requiring tap offs system wide.
 
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Regular commuters would carry a hard card that has some kind of frequent use discount, tracked and applied electronically. Occasional users will buy a flimsy version of the same card, like the one in New York. I think card activated exits are inevitable, only where there are stations, but buses could still register the exit remotely like the finish line threshold at a running race registers the chip in a runner's bib.
 
If you plug your departure stop/station and destination stop/station into a machine in the station or online, in many cases you'll get optional routings, one more expensive and faster incorporating RER, the other using buses, streetcars, and subways only. I'd like to see how ST gets designated in this mix. Ideally it's fared like non-RER, but it may end up as a kind of hybrid. Registering exits will allow distance based fare integration. The question is, what are the algorithms used to calculate it?
 
Tap off can provide a refund for the otherwise-double fare. No need to have it at every station in the system. If you board at VMC and don't tap off, you pay the full fare. If you take a GO Bus to 407, tap on, then tap off at York U, you don't pay any extra TTC fare over your existing GO fare. If you tap on at York U, tap off at Downsview Park, and tap on to a GO Train, you don't pay a TTC fare.

Some of these details are in flux and need to be confirmed closer to TYSSE opening.
Thank you, exactly what I was going to say.
Since only Presto will be accepted at the new stations, would everyone have to tap off to get out of the station? Let's say someone from Eglinton West (Cedarvale) goes to York University, and doesn't use Presto to enter the subway, how would they exit the station? Are there fare gates just for exiting that open automatically? Of course, when fare gates are installed in every entrance and exit of the system (can serve as both) tapping on and off wouldn't be a problem, but what about now?
Well, if you are not using presto then you wouldn't need to tap off. I assume that there will be some sort of a machine separate from the fare gate that will refund the TTC fare that presto users from GO and YRT paid when they got on to the subway.
 
Well, if you are not using presto then you wouldn't need to tap off. I assume that there will be some sort of a machine separate from the fare gate that will refund the TTC fare that presto users from GO and YRT paid when they got on to the subway.

That's pretty unlikely as TTC is interested in tapouts just to make fare fraud more difficult. York Region integration is an excuse to add it system wide without looking like they're calling their customers thieves.

Single-trip cards (for cash customers) need to be available first; no schedule that I know of but the new vending machines were (apparently) designed to dispense them.
 
That's pretty unlikely as TTC is interested in tapouts just to make fare fraud more difficult. York Region integration is an excuse to add it system wide without looking like they're calling their customers thieves.

Single-trip cards (for cash customers) need to be available first; no schedule that I know of but the new vending machines were (apparently) designed to dispense them.
So they plan to eliminate the token?
 
I have a few questions on a few things, the first topic relates to what I call "cabotage" and it will become important regarding to how routes will operate when the subway extension opens.

This fare boundary creates a strange situation when the subway opens. How would Brampton/YRT routes work with the new subway stations? Obviously, no one wants to pay two fares from York or Brampton to reach York University, so does the Zum Queen still operate to York U (and possibly stop at the new Vaughan and Hwy 407 stops)? Or will Brampton residents now have to pay two fares assuming the Zum connection to York U is eliminated.
To answer your question about Brampton Transit/Zum, their negotiation with TTC to reach a similar deal like the GO and YRT one isn't going to well, so right now they have three options on the table. "
"Passengers on 501 have option to transfer to Subway at VMC to access campus, but extra fare may be required"

http://www.brampton.ca/EN/residents...ts/Documents/BramptonTransit_PICBoardsWeb.pdf
Take a look at page 8 for the three options.
 
Doesn't make sense to run redundant buses, which would be slower, when we've just spent billions on this subway extension. Let Zum and YRT (and for that matter, any other transit commision) customers transfer for free for the one station ride.

Not sure if this is going to happen in Etobicoke too, currently MiWay riders going to (and ending their trip at) Islington don't have to pay a second fare, but that's going to change when MiWay buses stop at the new Kipling, and riders want to get to Islington. It's odd (not complaining, but odd) that TTC allows other agencies to bring riders in to a certain (arbitrary) places within the city without requiring them to pay additional fares, but the reverse isn't true. To take the TTC 52 to Westwood in Mississauga, for example, you have to pay the extra fare (TTC and MiWay), but to take MiWay 11, you don't need to pay to come into Toronto. The only exception would be the TTC 192 Airport Rocket to Pearson.
 
Doesn't make sense to run redundant buses, which would be slower, when we've just spent billions on this subway extension. Let Zum and YRT (and for that matter, any other transit commision) customers transfer for free for the one station ride.

Not sure if this is going to happen in Etobicoke too, currently MiWay riders going to (and ending their trip at) Islington don't have to pay a second fare, but that's going to change when MiWay buses stop at the new Kipling, and riders want to get to Islington. It's odd (not complaining, but odd) that TTC allows other agencies to bring riders in to a certain (arbitrary) places within the city without requiring them to pay additional fares, but the reverse isn't true. To take the TTC 52 to Westwood in Mississauga, for example, you have to pay the extra fare (TTC and MiWay), but to take MiWay 11, you don't need to pay to come into Toronto. The only exception would be the TTC 192 Airport Rocket to Pearson.

TTC service in Mississauga and York Region is provided under contract (and mostly predates the creation of the suburban transit agencies), Toronto has no say in service levels and does not pay the subsidies. Effectively the buses become Miway or YRT vehicles when the cross the boundary.

The same is not true in reverse, ie for Miway buses to Islington and YRT buses to Finch.
 
TTC service in Mississauga and York Region is provided under contract (and mostly predates the creation of the suburban transit agencies), Toronto has no say in service levels and does not pay the subsidies. Effectively the buses become Miway or YRT vehicles when the cross the boundary.

The same is not true in reverse, ie for Miway buses to Islington and YRT buses to Finch.
I guess my question, then, is why isn't the reverse true?
 
I guess my question, then, is why isn't the reverse true?
TTC operates some bus routes for other agencies(you probably know a few already), but the other agencies don't operate buses for TTC. For example, once a TTC bus goes into Mississauga, it is now a Miway bus. On the other hand, Miway buses go into Toronto because not because they want to serve residents there but because they need to connect to the subway, and so they do not serve TTC riders(a Miway bus heading to Islington can't pick up riders in Toronto, and a Miway bus returning can't drop off passengers in Toronto).
 
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This is a similar situation back in 1921 when there 9 separate fare systems in the city of Toronto. But, this time we have 11 separate fare systems throughout the GTHA including GO and UPX
 
TTC operates some bus routes for other agencies(you probably know a few already), but the other agencies don't operate buses for TTC. For example, once a TTC bus goes into Mississauga, it is now a Miway bus. On the other hand, Miway buses go into Toronto because not because they want to serve residents there but because they need to connect to the subway, and so they do not serve TTC riders(a Miway bus heading to Islington can't pick up riders in Toronto, and a Miway bus returning can't drop off passengers in Toronto).

I referred to this kind of situation as being similar to cabotage rules.

For those who don't know what I mean when I speak of cabotage, in the traditional since, it usually refers to transportation of goods or passengers between two points in country A while the transport operator is in country B.

Cabotage rules are the reason for instance why United Airlines can't run a flight from Pearson to Montreal.

Similarly, cross border trucking works the same way, if I was a trucker, I can't move anything between two points within the US. I could pick up a load in Mississauga and have multiple drop offs of the same load at different points in the US, like suppose I drop half the load off in Detroit and the other half off in Chicago. Under no circumstances could I bring a load from Detroit to Chicago. On the way back I could indeed have multiple pickups, but these pickups must be headed for Canada, I can't again pick something up in Chicago and drop it off in Detroit, but I could in theory pick something up in Chicago and pick more stuff up in Detroit as long as it's headed to Canada.

The idea is the same with passengers, Qantas runs a flight from New York JFK to Sydney with a stopover in LAX. One cannot buy a ticket for the NY to LA portion of that trip because it violates cabotage. On the way to Sydney, the plane can pick up more passengers in LA but NO ONE can get off in LA, similarly on the return trip, passengers can be dropped off in LA but no new passengers may board to go to NYC.

This is also why the Amtrak run from NY to Toronto runs as a VIA train on the Canadian portion of the trip, with a Canadian crew, because of the multiple stops, unlike the Amtrak routes into Montreal or Vancouver where those places are the ONLY Canadian stops on the route, thus the American Amtrak crew stays onboard to Montreal and Vancouver.


I know it's different, but how MiWay and YRT (and possibly Brampton) behave when they enter Toronto mirrors the cabotage rules. Oddly enough, the TTC doesn't have any routes other than the 192 Airpirt which follow "cabotage rules" into the suburbs, I mean, the 58 Malton could easily operate as the only non Toronto stop being the Westwood Mall, or perhaps a hypothetical route to Vaughan Mills which followed similar "cabotage" restrictions. In the hypothetical 58 Malton scenario, only one fare would be paid at the Westwood Mall and the bus would go directly into Toronto's boundary before its first passenger could be discharged.
 

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