News   Nov 18, 2024
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Public Square and New Park Design in Toronto

I will have to respectfully disagree with you two.

I believe people are people and given the chance many will relax and have a coffee or beer. All people like being in public places and people-watching, whether they're European or North American. The difference is the urban environment that makes it more or less welcoming to do that. That's part of the reason why malls and food courts in malls are so popular in the suburbs.

In fact, that already happens in many patios across the city.
 
Times Square and Broadway benefit from the massive crush of tourists. It may be full, but how many of those people are actually residents of NYC vs tourists?

It's not just Broadway & Times Square, if you go to Brooklyn you'll find that many places have been converted to small European style squares successfully.

This is a very recent phenomenon and it really went against what people thought was the culture & DNA of NYC. Lots of people said exactly what you two were saying "we are not Europe and therefore it won't work".
 
I'm not saying it won't work -- in fact I would love for it to work! Since spending time in Europe, I've become more aware of the importance of slowing down a little, taking time out, etc. I do think it's a culture thing; we feel guilty if we're not "being productive". Perhaps making more spaces will help change that culture, but it's more than the parks. It's a good place to start though, and I'm willing to spend time hanging out in parks showing people how lovely it can be :)
 
I will have to respectfully disagree with you two.

I believe people are people and given the chance many will relax and have a coffee or beer. All people like being in public places and people-watching, whether they're European or North American. The difference is the urban environment that makes it more or less welcoming to do that. That's part of the reason why malls and food courts in malls are so popular in the suburbs.

In fact, that already happens in many patios across the city.

Im not denying that it happens, I am just saying it feels much more rushed and fast paced here than it does in Europe. It's not just the built environment, its the way we do business. Things are much more corporate here, and corporate means rushing to maximize profit. You don't want people staying and relaxing, you want them in, paying, and then leaving so the next person can do the same. In Europe, things are much more mom and pop, where it's not about rushing, but enjoying the entire experience.

Take Dundas Square as an example. We have several options for grabbing a coffee around Dundas Square, yet none of them offer that space where you can sit and unwind. They are designed to get your beverage quickly, and then move onto the next person. This doesn't help create the environment that encourages people to stop and enjoy their time.
 
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Yeah, one thing Europe does well that North America doesn't is create public spaces people enjoying being in that AREN'T parks. NYC is one of the first places to do it really successfully in a North American context, and it has only done so in the last few years. I hear Boston does it well too, but it has more of a European street structure (same with Montreal).

Just to elaborate on Dundas Square though, it does share many of the characteristics as a European square, and it is actually very successful I would say. There are often people there just sitting there hanging out. In fact, it's one of the few places in the city that you will see people sitting at those tables outdoors at night in the summer that isn't a restaurant or bar patio.
 
Im not denying that it happens, I am just saying it feels much more rushed and fast paced here than it does in Europe. It's not just the built environment, its the way we do business. Things are much more corporate here, and corporate means rushing to maximize profit. You don't want people staying and relaxing, you want them in, paying, and then leaving so the next person can do the same. In Europe, things are much more mom and pop, where it's not about rushing, but enjoying the entire experience.

Take Dundas Square as an example. We have several options for grabbing a coffee around Dundas Square, yet none of them offer that space where you can sit and unwind. They are designed to get your beverage quickly, and then move onto the next person. This doesn't help create the environment that encourages people to stop and enjoy their time.

I'd have to bring up NYC again. Wall street is clearly a very corporate, capitalist, rushed & intense place of business. Yet take a look at Stone street a few minutes walk away from Wall Street:
Stone-Street-NYC-2-e1274959252389.jpg


In terms of coffee near Dundas Square, checkout Balzac's near Ryerson as a counter example. It's a serene pedestrian area that invites people to relax and enjoy the day, right near Dundas Square.
 
In terms of coffee near Dundas Square, checkout Balzac's near Ryerson as a counter example. It's a serene pedestrian area that invites people to relax and enjoy the day, right near Dundas Square.[/QUOTE]

How many of those places are corporate though? Put that streetscape + small businesses anywhere in Toronto and you will get the same thing. Market Street will have that kind of feeling this summer, and the people in charge of that project put a lot of attention into finding the right tenants for the space. I agree Balzacs is a step in the right direction. It has definitely helped to enhance Gould Street.
 
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How many of those places are corporate though? Put that streetscape + small businesses anywhere in Toronto and you will get the same thing. Market Street will have that kind of feeling this summer, and the people in charge of that project put a lot of attention into finding the right tenants for the space. I agree Balzacs is a step in the right direction. It has definitely helped to enhance Gould Street.

Yeah there are plenty of examples in Toronto as well of people relaxing on patios & people watching in public places, Kensington Market, Little Italy, Queen West.

Yeah I agree it's the streetscape & format that encourages certain types of activity. Hopefully we'll see more of it and improved public places in the future.
 
I think Yonge Dundas Square is a pretty good start towards a more convivial urban square, but it still depends too much on events and temporary facilities being set up. You can lounge on the chairs but if there's nothing to keep you there, you're not really going to stay.

I think it could use a small café and maybe, as an extension of the food truck idea, some food stalls ...

http://www.videoreportages.be/files/gallery/71/71_10_large.jpg
 
^^ You don't want to stay because of its design. It's a very awkward design and sloped. Banks used to make their floors slope up to the counter to make customers feel subordinate to the bank. Sloped floors don't make one feel grounded or want to stay very long. Dundas Square will always suffer from this problem as long as that underground parking garage is there. It should never have been allowed, but we're likely stuck with it for at least a few decades now.

I find Dundas Square more inviting than NPS to be honest. NPS just feels too big, whereas Dundas Square feels 'cozy'. I enjoy sitting and people watching at Dundas Square more than I do at NPS and feel much more comfortable there.

Each have their good points. Dundas Square does feel more intimate and alive, but lacks that sense of grandeur that was needed for such an important site. The sloping nature of the square to accommodate underground parking doesn't help one iota. The square itself is a smashing success (and was much needed), but the design falls short.

NPS ticks off all the boxes that Dundas Square doesn't. It's grand and has a strong sense of place. The new additions really pulled it all together, but it's one downfall is the scale of the buildings surrounding it. For such a big square one needs buildings of large enough scale to balance it out. We have that to the south, but to the east, west, and north we don't. 2 Queen West and Massey Tower will help to a degree to the east, there's not much that can be done on the west unless we see get a 250m+ building replacing Zurich one day, which leaves us with the north.

We're employing the wrong approach when it comes to views to the north. Instead of reducing heights of buildings behind City Hall so we can't see the city we should be doing the exact opposite. It's almost eerie looking north. Where did the city go? We need substantial height to the north, northeast, and northwest when one stands in NPS to make the square come together and provide a big city vista to the north that matches the terrific vista to the south. AURA helped a little, but it's too far away to have a big impact. We should have gone a lot taller with Motion, not chopped it so we couldn't see it.

All is not lost. There are still opportunities to recover from this mistake with that lot to the northwest of NPS at the southern tip of Chestnut. A 300m+ building there would do wonders for NPS by countering the scale of the square. You can't do that with a 50m-150m building. That said, you can't just plonk down a standard condo tower there either. You need something that's as high calibre as City Hall was/is. This lot is where Toronto's future show piece skyscraper needs to go. A Zaha Hadid or Nouvel tower would be perfect here, but you need to go tall so the square can play off the height.

Regarding NPS, it would be even more intimate/cozy if the wall of billboards on the north side were double the current height. It's too short and squat. Perhaps they could hire someone with a sense of proportion and scale this time?
 
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NPS is not inviting for a couple of reasons - 1. the darn pedestrian walkway says "do not enter"; and 2. once you're in NPS, there's nothing to do. Nothing neighbours on to it. The french fry trucks on the street are the big draw. It's a shame really. Maybe we need to tear down city hall and start over.

Regarding Yonge-Dundas, I think it suffers from hyper-animation: A lot of public squares or pedestrian streets are of a scale and quality that feel intimate (even if large) and interesting so that you can just sit there and look around. At Yonge-Dundas, you have the monstosity of the Eaton Centre, the next monstrosity of the AMC theatre complex, and a zillion billboards that cause seizures. Add to that the traffic on Yonge and along Dundas, which you're effectively in the middle of, and it's not really a nice place to go have a relaxing coffee or beer. The hyper-animation of the place makes it somewhere where a lot of people don't want to 'hang out' - its a place to move through, not stop and ponder or enjoy life.

I think what would help would be to redefine the whole Yonge corridor and make it a place that moves at a slower pace. A few suggestions:
- take Yonge down to two uni-directional lanes (south in the PM, north in the AM) between Bloor and Queen (or King).
- add bike lanes;
- expand sidewalks;
- this will reduce vehicle traffic on yonge, promote sidewalk patios, allow people to move slower and facilitate some investment in the Yonge St. commercial strip, which is generally a dump.
- redevelop the northeast corner of the Eaton Centre to add some at grade uses that provide a space to allow people to sit out there (I'm not sure if this is possible given the configuration of the mall at this end).

I do find Toronto's attempt to mimic Times Square quite comical. In Times Square they had theatres and entertainment and culture, which brought people. First came the people then came the ads. In Toronto, we figured "if we build it they will come" - but instead of building culture or entertainment venues, we built ads...and the people still came.
 
Aren't there like 3 first-run theatres within a 5 minute walk of Yonge/Dundas? Besides that, there are the same tourist oriented restaurants at YD as at Times Square. Clearly not the same volume, but I don't really see the difference otherwise. Lots of cities have areas like that, i.e. Picadilly, Shibuya, etc
 
To be fair though, there are lots of musical acts at Dundas Square throughout the summer. Sometimes there are pretty good performers too, I saw a pretty good acrobatics act there.
 
Nathan Phillips Square is a good place for a protest or a festival but it's not an inviting place to just hang out and people watch. It just feels too cold and uninviting. It's too big of an open space and much too much concrete. It's lacking distinctive features or character. I don't know what it is but it just feels like it's missing something.

Metro Hall square is also lacking something. It has no character or major focal point. I remember reading somewhere that it will be redesigned and I hope that happens soon.

I think we need to develop smaller public squares around the city. We can require condo developers to add small, distinctive, beautiful public squares in their projects. With our development boom, I don't think it would be so hard to do. We are doing that with parks, like at 300 Front Street, so why not add a few squares? I find public squares more urban and interesting than our typical parks. There is a lot more you can do with nice paving stones, than you can do with grass.
 
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Agreed. NPS is just too big and cold. It's fine to walk across or through, but it doesn't invite you to stay the same way that Berczy Park or other smaller spaces do. I also like Victoria Memorial Square when it isn't over run by dogs.
 

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