M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Pardon my ignorance... but.. What's the difference between a "subway" and an "underground light-rail" line?
A subway is heavy rail and light rail uses a streetcar.
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Province eyes Metrolinx shakeup
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
A subway is heavy rail and light rail uses a streetcar.
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
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Pardon my ignorance... but.. What's the difference between a "subway" and an "underground light-rail" line?
speed & capacity. what we call a subway is really a rapid transit line (RT) but i guess we call them subways because they're mostly underground. sometimes the names don't make sense, like an "elevated subway". it's like having an underground sky way.
Dan416
Senior Member
I just hope that whatever we end up getting, we don't end up regretting.
DavidH
Senior Member
There is no new Metrolinx. The legislation is nowhere closed to being passed yet, and until it is, it's business as usual with the current board.
My guess based on the loosely veiled hints included in the Post story is that they want to announce Sheppard separately just before it goes into construction to emphasize that it would be starting construction virtually immediately.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I am still on my rant that this is a circumvention of the whole regional planning concept that M'linx engaged in and resulted in Regional Transit Plan....then the politicians get heavily involved (M&M) and announce a bunch of the projects (pretty much all in the city so not very "regional") that get priority and immediate funding...while the other (perhaps less sexy) projects wait.....using the "immediate jobs....shovel ready" excuse.
Take this for what you will but I happen to be a more mature guy (read older) who is in the financial business.....recessions end!! This one will too....my prediction is that this one is starting the ending process (it won't end as fast or as dramatically as it started and it will be a while before we all "feel" like it is over...but the process has started).......very soon, our governments (all levels) will be far more concerned with the deficits (and potential inflation) that their short term actions/reactions have (or may) cause and some of the enthusiasm (well, mostly all of the enthusiasm) for making multi-billion dollar funding announcements (transit or otherwise) will wane as they face electorates against opponents who are touting tax cuts and balanced budgets.........
.....it would not shock me that for, say, the next 5 years these are the last funding announcements around the RTP....if that is true, how balanced an approach is this? Do we still not end up with a city that has transit and transit users and a suburban surrounding (the "905") without convenient viable transit options to get them into that city....and a transportation discussion on Urbantoronto.ca that talks about those car crazed 905ers and their disdain for public transit?
......again, my beef is not about any one of these projects, it is about our continual redefining of process and a wondering about why we bothered with M'linx and their RTP if M&M were just going to announce the projects that they liked the most (ie. the ones that got Miller re-elected and then allowed him to throw his support/love at McGuinty so that he too could get re-elected.......if that is the process, then no other mayor/city/region had a chance as only Miller can deliver to McGuinty the number of seats that Toronto can!)
Soap box away!!!
Anth
Active Member
Hate to break this to you, but Brampton isn't the most important part of the GTA and the Eglinton line does have regional importance.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I am from Brampton (I don't hide that) but this ranting today and yesterday is not about Brampton specifically...it is driven on how we went from a regional plan to a city one very fast (read above).
Since you brought it up, though, Brampton definitely is not the most important part of the GTA (although it is pretty important to the people who live there and the people who the province is encouraging to live there in the future {being one of the "places to grow"} ) but it is a part of the GTA....a much larger one than, say, Vaughan....yet Vaughan gets two subway lines extended out to it, a couple of Billion for its bus service and very similar GO service as Brampton.....all that anyone (be they from Brampton or Meadowvale or "X") can ask for is some sort of regional balance in terms of funding and service.......we are miles from that!
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299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
Let's say we built the Brampton Acceleride first. What the heck does it connect to? Acceleride is to hook up to the Viva Highway 7 Rapidways and the Hurontario rapid transit service. They have to be built first or it won't work.
That being said, Acceleride is in MX's Top 15 Priorities and WILL be built or under construction by 2015. There is no question about that. Everyone who thinks this announcement is the only one needs to get their head around the fact that this is just step one of a bigger plan.
That being said, Acceleride is in MX's Top 15 Priorities and WILL be built or under construction by 2015. There is no question about that. Everyone who thinks this announcement is the only one needs to get their head around the fact that this is just step one of a bigger plan.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Unless the money runs out first....or the public tolerance for continued deficit financing of a recession that becomes yesterdays news wears thin....or we change priorities again.....obviously I am way more cynical/skeptical than otherse here!
So, announce the funding for the Hurontario line? I know it is still under study but, to some extent, aren't they all? In fact, announce funding for it all, take that doubt that cynics like me have out. Announce that the RTP has the full funding and backing of the Province announce that the multi-Billion dollar gap that was there when M'linx unveiled the RTP is gone.....then there might be credence to the "these are just natural, logical, first of the projects to go" argument....until then, they are just the short term rationalization for an "out of process political announcement".
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
TOareafan:
Considering the amount of ridership in the core city, and the potential for 905 area transit to feed into these lines - the answer is a big YES. And besides, the Eglinton line has been on the drawing board and identified as a need for what, at least 25, 30 years?
That's not to say Brampton hasn't been shortchanged - talk to ShonTron about it if you'd like with respect to GO Transit.
Easier to fund a $1B busway than a $4B subway/LRT under those conditions.
AoD
Considering the amount of ridership in the core city, and the potential for 905 area transit to feed into these lines - the answer is a big YES. And besides, the Eglinton line has been on the drawing board and identified as a need for what, at least 25, 30 years?
That's not to say Brampton hasn't been shortchanged - talk to ShonTron about it if you'd like with respect to GO Transit.
Easier to fund a $1B busway than a $4B subway/LRT under those conditions.
AoD
TOareaFan
Superstar
No...I don't agree with that.....right now the government could come out and say "we are today providing a $2billion grant to a widget factory in Cantfindmeonamap Ontario. The widgets have no purpose but they will keep 87 Cantfindmeonamapians employed" and they would get support.
Once we are pulling out of the recession and the papers are full of "higher taxes neede to curb inflation and pay off debt" headlines ....
....saying "We are today announcing a $1B funding of the last crucial part of our RTP which is the inexepensive busway as suggested by AlvinofDiaspar two years ago" will not be that tolerable.....how easy was it for any transit authority to get money out of Ottawa or Queens Park the last time we were focused on deficits and balancing the books?
$9B today is a lot easier to find/fund than $1B will be in 18 months....I fear!
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
TOareafan:
It has to start somewhere - and given the funding announcements aren't even done, I don't see what's the point of getting all hysterical. Besides, you are basically advocating that the project you favour should have priority in spite of the fact that other transit projects have been long identified as a need and have much greater regional implications. How's that for "balanced"?
BTW, you suggest that the RTP as an impartial, apolitical process that is achieved on the basis of need and merit - really?
AoD
It has to start somewhere - and given the funding announcements aren't even done, I don't see what's the point of getting all hysterical. Besides, you are basically advocating that the project you favour should have priority in spite of the fact that other transit projects have been long identified as a need and have much greater regional implications. How's that for "balanced"?
BTW, you suggest that the RTP as an impartial, apolitical process that is achieved on the basis of need and merit - really?
AoD
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TOareaFan
Superstar
was not aware I am being hysterical.....just voicing an opinion....other people reacted to my opinion and I react to that...isn't that how it works or are the only valid opinions the "gee that is nice we got some money" ones?
Not sure I advocated any particular project at all....I said that with all of the different projects in the RTP in all of the other parts of the region I found it strange that what got funding was 2 parallel east west lines in the city, a repair/upgrade/extension to an existing line in the city and a couple of billion for another east west line in Vaughan (which seems to get treated like it is in the ciy). And a strong hint that another east west LRT in the city will be the next to get funding.
It did not seem balanced to me....sorry if people don't like that.
That is the Koolade they gave us...if it is not true, then we need to ask why the bother of producing M'linx and their reports if politicos outside of it are just going to announce ad hoc like this.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I see what you're saying but I think you're just simplifying things.
Metrolinx has already prioritized the projects, at least in general groups. That doesn't mean they are all ready to go NOW.
The emphasis for government stimulus packages has been to to start construction NOW (or within the year) and these are the projects that qualify.
The Eglinton LRT isn't just some E/W route running parallel to the Finch line. they serve totally different communities and totally different purposes and have different, varying regional impacts.
The Viva line similarly isn't some east-west Vaughan connection. It's part of a region-wide BRT; and you seem to have a hate on for Vaughan. They are not getting two subways and a BRT. The BRT goes all the way across Hwy 7 and the first part to go in will be from Richmond Hill to Markham. Vaughan is the next phase, along with up Yonge Street (part of which, yes, is the Vaughan border).
Similarly, the Yonge subway extension runs along the very bottom of Vaughan's eastern border.
To sum up: I understand how at first glance this can seem like the province prioritizing for Metrolinx but if you step back and think you can see how it's all going down.
You set up a bit of a straw man when you say you don't expect more money and therefore only Toronto (and Vaughan!) are getting projects and how fair is that? Well, it's not fair but it's also not true. There is more provincial money already in the kitty and we still haven't heard about the federal infrastructure funding. I guarantee you'll hear about the Sheppard LRT and Yonge subway before the summer, for starters.
You seem to think they went through all this - creating Mlinx, changing the board, giving them money - all as some pointless, short-term project which is already wrapping up. It's a 25-year plan and we're in year one. Have some faith.
Metrolinx has already prioritized the projects, at least in general groups. That doesn't mean they are all ready to go NOW.
The emphasis for government stimulus packages has been to to start construction NOW (or within the year) and these are the projects that qualify.
The Eglinton LRT isn't just some E/W route running parallel to the Finch line. they serve totally different communities and totally different purposes and have different, varying regional impacts.
The Viva line similarly isn't some east-west Vaughan connection. It's part of a region-wide BRT; and you seem to have a hate on for Vaughan. They are not getting two subways and a BRT. The BRT goes all the way across Hwy 7 and the first part to go in will be from Richmond Hill to Markham. Vaughan is the next phase, along with up Yonge Street (part of which, yes, is the Vaughan border).
Similarly, the Yonge subway extension runs along the very bottom of Vaughan's eastern border.
To sum up: I understand how at first glance this can seem like the province prioritizing for Metrolinx but if you step back and think you can see how it's all going down.
You set up a bit of a straw man when you say you don't expect more money and therefore only Toronto (and Vaughan!) are getting projects and how fair is that? Well, it's not fair but it's also not true. There is more provincial money already in the kitty and we still haven't heard about the federal infrastructure funding. I guarantee you'll hear about the Sheppard LRT and Yonge subway before the summer, for starters.
You seem to think they went through all this - creating Mlinx, changing the board, giving them money - all as some pointless, short-term project which is already wrapping up. It's a 25-year plan and we're in year one. Have some faith.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
I am done with this disucssion....only because it is fruitless for us on here to debate something in the future.
Just as only time will prove if I am right (ie. the funds and willingness will run out long before the entire RTP is funded) or if others are right (ie. it will all get funded, don't worry, and this is just the natural order of things).
I have no hate for Vaughan....I thought the VIVA funding was for a line in Vaughan (that was what was reported on the radio station I was listnening too)...and was simply using them as a poster child for imbalance.....perhaps I should have said York Region seems to be getting a bit more than its "share" of transit funding with 2 subway extensions, GO service and a lot of VIVA money.
few last questions though (and these are legit questionsfor the people who follow this the most closely).......
1. are these really the only 4 shovel ready projects? (thust legitimizing - from a short term anti-recession point of view - their fuding announcement) because if they are not is this not also prioritizing jobs in Toronto over jobs elsewhere?
2. earlier someone (incorrectly thinking I wanted Acceleride funded/built first) suggested that it would link to this York Viva line and that it made sense to wait....now you tell me that the first phase of this highway 7 line is from Richmond Hill to Markham.......why would they go in that order? I recognize that there is a greater population in that part of York but if this line is what is ultimately going to connect the (by then) 600k Bramptonians to the regional plan would it not make sense to build the western link first....otherwise, that poster's "wait for acceleride" response should have been "wait, and wait and wait..........."
3. is your guarantee that "the Sheppard LRT and Yonge subway" line will be announced before the summer supposed to make me feel more balanced about this?
Anyway, as I said, only the future will tell us what is in the future. I hope I am wrong....I hope the entire RTP is funded, I hope that it is done in such a way that there is balance/logic/equity for all....I hope that we end up in 2024 with all of the 15 year prirorities achieved and that people can move seemlessly around the GTA by transit....I really do hope for all of that!!!
Keep in mind, my family's greatest frustration about me is that for the last 20 years the only thing I have ever asked for for christmas is world peace....I ask for it every year and it never comes........I don't have a great record of wishes coming true
Just as only time will prove if I am right (ie. the funds and willingness will run out long before the entire RTP is funded) or if others are right (ie. it will all get funded, don't worry, and this is just the natural order of things).
I have no hate for Vaughan....I thought the VIVA funding was for a line in Vaughan (that was what was reported on the radio station I was listnening too)...and was simply using them as a poster child for imbalance.....perhaps I should have said York Region seems to be getting a bit more than its "share" of transit funding with 2 subway extensions, GO service and a lot of VIVA money.
few last questions though (and these are legit questionsfor the people who follow this the most closely).......
1. are these really the only 4 shovel ready projects? (thust legitimizing - from a short term anti-recession point of view - their fuding announcement) because if they are not is this not also prioritizing jobs in Toronto over jobs elsewhere?
2. earlier someone (incorrectly thinking I wanted Acceleride funded/built first) suggested that it would link to this York Viva line and that it made sense to wait....now you tell me that the first phase of this highway 7 line is from Richmond Hill to Markham.......why would they go in that order? I recognize that there is a greater population in that part of York but if this line is what is ultimately going to connect the (by then) 600k Bramptonians to the regional plan would it not make sense to build the western link first....otherwise, that poster's "wait for acceleride" response should have been "wait, and wait and wait..........."
3. is your guarantee that "the Sheppard LRT and Yonge subway" line will be announced before the summer supposed to make me feel more balanced about this?
Anyway, as I said, only the future will tell us what is in the future. I hope I am wrong....I hope the entire RTP is funded, I hope that it is done in such a way that there is balance/logic/equity for all....I hope that we end up in 2024 with all of the 15 year prirorities achieved and that people can move seemlessly around the GTA by transit....I really do hope for all of that!!!
Keep in mind, my family's greatest frustration about me is that for the last 20 years the only thing I have ever asked for for christmas is world peace....I ask for it every year and it never comes........I don't have a great record of wishes coming true