Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

[lenaitch]

Invoked is not enacted, as in declared after a constitutional challenge. The NWC has invoked several times.

I couldn't find the proposed Bill online so I was assume it hasn't been tabled yet. Once the Bill is passed it becomes law, which it surely will given the majority government. It seems that some parties opposed are already planning to argue the law under Sec. 3 (Democratic Rights), which is outside of the scope of Sec. 33 (NWC).

 

[DSC]

I must say I had not heard that alcohol sellers will have to collect empties but it seems like a fair idea to me - if it applies to everyone. From: https://www.thestar.com/business/op...cle_3fab9ea0-8587-11ef-8bb0-531da113758b.html

Opinion | Ford government must rethink plan to force independent grocery stores to accept empty alcohol containers​

 

[Richard White]

I must say I had not heard that alcohol sellers will have to collect empties but it seems like a fair idea to me - if it applies to everyone. From: https://www.thestar.com/business/op...cle_3fab9ea0-8587-11ef-8bb0-531da113758b.html

Opinion | Ford government must rethink plan to force independent grocery stores to accept empty alcohol containers​

I manage a Condo in East York with a Beer Store attached so perhaps I can give some first hand opinions here.

There is a woman who attends this particular beer store daily with multiple carts full of bottles to return. She has a whole setup with a shopping cart, bungee cords, an apron and gloves.

The problem is that some people treat bottle returns as an income source. I don't think it would serve anyone to have sketchy characters with carts full of bottles clogging up customer service and/or causing other issues.

Years ago, there was a woman at Warden Station who would dig through the bins at various stations collecting cans and bottles. She would regularly get on the 17 Birchmount with garbage bags full of stinky and leaky cans.

There needs to be dedicated locations for bottle return that won't cause problems via people returning over 100 bottles at a time.

 

[Northern Light]

I must say I had not heard that alcohol sellers will have to collect empties but it seems like a fair idea to me - if it applies to everyone. From: https://www.thestar.com/business/op...cle_3fab9ea0-8587-11ef-8bb0-531da113758b.html

Opinion | Ford government must rethink plan to force independent grocery stores to accept empty alcohol containers​

Small retailers will be exempt.

I believe they are drawing the line at 10,000ft2, but don't hold me to that.

They're also exempting independents for the first year, I think.

****

This is common in much of the country, so all the squawking, the large chains all have experience w/this in other provinces.

Edit: I overstated the above by saying 'common' Retailers are involved in deposit return in two provinces, Quebec and BC. But it appears to be voluntary and compensated by the responsible authorities. .

That said, I don't think its a productive exercise. If they were collecting them for re-use, that would be different, but just to chuck them in the blue bin, which everyone can do at home..........doesn't strike me as worthwhile. We also haven't increased deposits in years, the .10c per beer was the number 30 years ago.....while wine has been .20c for a decade or more.

I think you'd need to double it to get a participation rate that's really useful.

****

If we really want to make recycling pay, we should install the machines they have in many European countries where you return them to a vending machine of sorts, and it crushes/compacts the material for later pickup, and you typically either get a value receipt, or you get money transferred to a debit or credit card. Though some still dispense cash.

https://www.recyclingtoday.com/news/tomra-reverse-vending-r1-bottle-can-recycling/

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I must say I had not heard that alcohol sellers will have to collect empties but it seems like a fair idea to me - if it applies to everyone. From: https://www.thestar.com/business/op...cle_3fab9ea0-8587-11ef-8bb0-531da113758b.html

Opinion | Ford government must rethink plan to force independent grocery stores to accept empty alcohol containers​

Easy solution - all grocery stores of a retail square footage of above X square feet must accept empty containers. Germany did it - no reason why we can't - and over there the rebate from returns (Pfand) is issued as a receipt that the recipient can then use for groceries in-store - in essence serving as an incentive.

AoD

 

[lenaitch]

Unless and until the province goes to a deposit return system, the retailers are going to have to find the space, just like they did for the booze. In those jurisdiction that have a deposit return system, how do their retailers cope; it still takes up space.

I like the idea of a 'reverse vending machine' but the one linked doesn't handle glass. Maybe there are ones that do but it's contents would still have to be emptied and stored by the host store.

 

[DSC]

Quebec, who have had a very good system for decades, are in the process of upgrading their system: See Full details at https://www.environnement.gouv.qc.ca/matieres/consigne-collecte/modernisation-consigne-en.htm

Key changes introduced by the modernization of deposit-refund in Québec​

All 100 milliliters to 2 liters ready-to-drink beverage containers used for wine, spirits and cider, juice and milk containers, and water bottles, will be gradually added to the list of currently covered beer and soft drink redeemable containers. This expansion will more than double the number of deposit-refund containers in the system by 2025, in two phases.

Deposit-refund modernization will also involve the following significant changes:

• The amount of the deposit will rise to $0.10 for most containers covered and $0.25 for 500 milliliters or more, glass containers.
• Producers that market target products in reusable containers can set a different deposit amount for them.
• Producers that market target products in Québec will be responsible for developing, implementing and funding the system. Consequently, they will be tasked with recovering the containers until the final reclamation of all packaging materials is complete. To achieve this result, they assign the mandate to the Designated Management Body (DMB).
• The DMB must achieve defined recovery, reclamation, local reclamation and recycling rates and report annually to the Ministère de l’Environnement, de la Lutte contre les changements climatiques, de la Faune et des Parcs and RECYC-QUÉBEC. If it does not achieve the expected outcomes, remediation measures and increased funding contributions to the system are required of the DMB to bolster the system’s performance and foster the achievement of prescribed outcomes. To satisfy performance requirements, the DMB cooperates with its stakeholders in order to foster the eco-design of their redeemable containers, local reclamation, and closed loop recycling.
• The network of redeemable container return sites must be able to manage a greater variety of sizes and materials and more containers. Certain retailers will no longer be obligated to accept redeemable containers. New return sites specifically intended for the deposit-refund system replace this feature.
• The DMB must set up a collection service for redeemable containers consumed on the premises of restaurants, hotels, and cafeterias, etc., in Quebec with a minimum seating capacity of 20;
• The deposit-refund system DMB is required to agree on a harmonization system with the selective collection DMB that sets operational and financial arrangements to take account of materials targeted by one system that end up in the other.

New containers targeted by the deposit-refund system​

All containers used to market ready-to-drink beverages from 100 milliliters to 2 liters made of plastic, glass, metal, fibres (multi-layer containers), a combination of these materials, any other material or a combination of materials will be covered by the deposit, whether they are single- or multi-fill containers. The only exceptions are flexible plastic containers (bags) such as «vinier» and those added at point of sale (e.g. coffee cups). Rollout of the system for all containers will take place in the following two phases:

1. November 1, 2023: addition of non-redeemable aluminum containers (e.g., juice, sparkling water or cider cans) to other containers already subject to a deposit (beer and soft drinks);
2. March 1, 2025: the addition of all other containers (glass, other breakables materials, plastic, ferrous metals, multilayered, biosourced) for beverages (juice, water, milk, wine, spirits, etc.) that were not returnable by November 1, 2023."

Because almost all drink containers have had a deposit in Quebec for decades, one sees VERY few littering the streets.

 

[afransen]

This is common in much of the country, so all the squawking, the large chains all have experience w/this in other provinces.

Is it?

From what I remember in Alberta, retailers don't take returns. They are accepted at specialized bottle depots. Do we simply rename The Beer Store to The Bottle Store?

 

[Northern Light]

Is it?

From what I remember in Alberta, retailers don't take returns. They are accepted at specialized bottle depots. Do we simply rename The Beer Store to The Bottle Store?

You're right, its less retailer-based that I remember, though retailers do have a significant role in the two largest provinces.

BC - A mix of retail and dedicated depots - London Drugs has a large take-back program in Vancouver.

Alberta - All depots, fairly large numbers.

Sask. - All depots - 4 or 5 in Regina

Quebec, most robust return network by far, required to be 1,500 locations by Jan. 1st 2025 - includes retailers and free-standing depots.

NS - All Depots

PEI - 10 Depots province wide

NB - Depots (4 in Saint. John)

NFLD - Depots ( 8 in St. Johns)

***

Conclusion - Quebec and BC both have Recycling bodies mandated to set up convenient return locations, there are minimum requirements, but they then have the flexibility to set up their own locations, or contract for them with third parties including retail.

No other province appears to impose mandatory retailer participation other than by provincial liquor monopolies, in some cases.

 

[afransen]

So, it seems fair to say that it's not common practice for every retailer large and small to accept deposit returns?

I kind of question the efficiency of requiring folks to bring bottles to distant, specialized deposit return infrastructure. That infrastructure by itself has a cost (and associated environmental footprint) and people making their way to inconveniently located returns sites has a footprint as well. Most casual consumers won't make a trek for a couple dollars worth of deposits, and will just put their containers curbside for the permanent underclass of garbage pickers to comb through and bring to returns sites to sustain themselves (or their addictions).

 

[lenaitch]

Do we simply rename The Beer Store to The Bottle Store?

And that's the problem, isn't it? With most of their exclusive market gutted, it simply can't continue to exist as a network of liquor bottle/can return depots.

Most casual consumers won't make a trek for a couple dollars worth of deposits, and will just put their containers curbside for the permanent underclass of garbage pickers to comb through and bring to returns sites to sustain themselves (or their addictions).

That's what we do. We go through so few that I'll be damned if I'm going to try and find a storage spot until there enough to warrant a trip to the store. Even when the grocery retailers start doing it, we might take one or two long on a shopping trip if they were recently emptied and are at top of mind (no easy task as you get older). It depends on how the return is set up. I'm not going to wait behind a bunch of people buy a week's worth of lottery scratchers at the 'customer service ' desk. Our last go-to store jammed the express lane, lottery, post office and carpet cleaner rental and probably a few other things onto one poor sod.

 

[Northern Light]

So, it seems fair to say that it's not common practice for every retailer large and small to accept deposit returns?

Not common, nationally, but present in a material way in Quebec and BC.

I kind of question the efficiency of requiring folks to bring bottles to distant, specialized deposit return infrastructure.

I agree. I would support if for re-use (ie. re-fillable bottles)

But just to put the stuff in a blue box, which you could do at home seems a bit much; and environmentally doesn't account for all the transportation energy (be it gas or electricity) used to affect those deposit/return trips.

Most casual consumers won't make a trek for a couple dollars worth of deposits, and will just put their containers curbside for the permanent underclass of garbage pickers to comb through and bring to returns sites to sustain themselves (or their addictions).

Rates of recycling in other provinces w/this system do seem to be higher. I confess to finding that strange. I mean its remarkably easy to do at home.

I wonder how effective auto-sorters are now, and whether we should just do combined pick up and let optical lasers work it out...........or whether the error/contamination rate is too high.

 

[afransen]

In a way, I would like it if our consumer culture had to align to a limited set of standardized containers, with the goal of each container to either optimize some combination of cost, reusability and recyclability. If there was less variation in packaging, waste diversion would be easier. The obstacle to this is the desire for marketers to have unique packaging and the fact that reusing or recycling packaging is rarely cost effective. It seems like beer bottles got to this point. But could we not have something similar for food items (varying sizes of mason jars that food companies could recycle).

I remember an initiative being announced a while ago. It used stainless steel containers, which didn't seem to strike the right balance of cost and reusability.

Exploreloop.com

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[DSC]

In a way, I would like it if our consumer culture had to align to a limited set of standardized containers, with the goal of each container to either optimize some combination of cost, reusability and recyclability. If there was less variation in packaging, waste diversion would be easier. The obstacle to this is the desire for marketers to have unique packaging and the fact that reusing or recycling packaging is rarely cost effective. It seems like beer bottles got to this point. But could we not have something similar for food items (varying sizes of mason jars that food companies could recycle).

I remember an initiative being announced a while ago. It used stainless steel containers, which didn't seem to strike the right balance of cost and reusability.

Exploreloop.com

Loop Product Catalogue

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Yes, beer bottles were standardised but then brewers wanted to 'stand out' and thought consumers would prefer (or be attracted to) different bottles - rather than better taste!

 

[lenaitch]

In a way, I would like it if our consumer culture had to align to a limited set of standardized containers, with the goal of each container to either optimize some combination of cost, reusability and recyclability. If there was less variation in packaging, waste diversion would be easier. The obstacle to this is the desire for marketers to have unique packaging and the fact that reusing or recycling packaging is rarely cost effective. It seems like beer bottles got to this point. But could we not have something similar for food items (varying sizes of mason jars that food companies could recycle).

I remember an initiative being announced a while ago. It used stainless steel containers, which didn't seem to strike the right balance of cost and reusability.

Exploreloop.com

Loop Product Catalogue

exploreloop.com

Shelves full of the same containers or packages but with different labels sound rather Soviet-ish and it would be difficult to implement in the global supply network we now have. Stubby beer bottles were a lot easier when our beer market was completely domestic. Back in their day, there was no US or craft beer available and, old memory, but I think the odd European brands that were available were sold at the LCBO.