Thinker
Active Member
Your question was totally not realistic, people are being kind by calling it bizarre. This has nothing to do with any political affiliation.
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Premier Doug Ford's Ontario
- Thread starter animatronic
- Start date
T3G
Senior Member
Again, why do you assume those people wouldn't get away with not working if they worked in a non unionized environment?
Those people would exist either way. The union exists to protect everyone, regardless of how much personal merit you believe they have as an employee, from working themselves to death in the name of the almighty Dollar. If it means that a few bad apples are allowed to carry on as they were, well, the alternative is much worse.
kamira51
Active Member
My apologies then. The post came across as a snarky, and I got defensive.
Oh yeah I agree with you, until you start to realize that your taxes are paying their wages, which I don't have an issue with as long as it isn't misused but then you have those CEOs and other MBAs hogging all the funds before it even gets to the teachers. But maybe I'm wrong and that's not how it works.
Thats why I also believe we need to restructure our education system from scratch, you can start by merging the catholic school boards with the public one, we would save alot of money by getting rid of duplicate roles. Maybe others here can give input into that idea.
wopchop
Building Toronto
Not true.
See: the nurses
wopchop
Building Toronto
All citizens deserve representation. Even the useless ones. You have to look at it differently - the union is there to represent their membership, the good and bad ones. Their job isn't to represent management - they can do that themselves perfectly fine.
Do we complain that our tax dollars provide legal aid and representation for criminals?
I have worked around unions and in the private sector my entire career, and there are plenty of useless workers in private sector. That the public sector is rife with these people and private is a bastion of efficiency is one of the greatest myths ever told.
Just think about the stereotypical boomer complaining about millenial workers being flakes, not willing to work, etc
You think all those millenials are in unions? Hardly any of them are.
picard102
Senior Member
You are.
kamira51
Active Member
Then please explain why I'm wrong.
Northern Light
Superstar
When you purchase any good or service, including those from myriad private-sector businesses, your money goes to both any number of hardworking people, doing their best, with varying success; both on the 'front lines' and in the executive suite.
When you buy goods at a supermarket; you're paying for all the losses that walk out the door; you're paying for all the product spoilage too (much of which is preventable); you're paying for bad management, poor scheduling, bad ordering policies, and some seriously bad decisions from time to time; totally apart from some truly breathtakingly excessive compensation for the C-Suite set.
All of that is in the price of every pkg of Bacon, every bottle of pop and every bag of potatoes. Taxes are no different.
for one of the most highly ranked systems on the planet, that would seem rather excessive. There are certainly areas that need improvement, but lets leave that to its own thread, shall we?
A fine idea, very popular with voters, but only the Green Party supports the idea, because unless the other parties all agree to the switch, Separate school voters will gang up en masse against the proponent party. None of teams Blue, Red or Orange are willing to take that risk; nor are they willing to agree to change for the common good. So, moot point.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Acknowledging this thread is not about teachers, this Fraser Institute report says:
I couldn't find a further breakdown by sector or bargaining unit, but will hazard a big guess that the number of CUPE members who are on the Sunshine List is pretty small. If I had to take a bead on a value-for-money review, I would start with the Boards.
I have no clue what a "hospital-based school authority" is.
"Fully three-quarters (75.1 per cent) of all education spending in Ontario public schools is consumed by compensation, which includes salaries, benefits, and pensions. Indeed, 73.4 per cent of the entire increase in education spending of $8.3 billion was allocated to increased compensation costs for both teaching and non-teaching staff in public schools."
I couldn't find a further breakdown by sector or bargaining unit, but will hazard a big guess that the number of CUPE members who are on the Sunshine List is pretty small. If I had to take a bead on a value-for-money review, I would start with the Boards.
This is an idea I can get behind. From the Ontario government website:
The following are the most recent facts and figures available for Ontario's publicly funded education system.
- Administration: Ontario's schools are administered by district school boards and school authorities.
- School boards are divided as follows:
- 31 English Public
- 29 English Catholic
- 4 French Public
- 8 French Catholic
- There are 10 School Authorities, consisting of 4 geographically isolated boards and 6 hospital-based school authorities.
- There is 1 Provincial Schools Authority.
- There is 1 Consortium.
- As of 2020-2021, there were 3,962 elementary and 871 secondary schools in Ontario.
I have no clue what a "hospital-based school authority" is.
Northern Light
Superstar
Bjays92
Senior Member
I'll jump in here briefly to say the Catholic school board should absolutely go, and that would even fulfill a long-standing obligation we have to the UN after the human rights committee ruled our current school system is discriminatory.
Ontario eduction absolutely should be reformed.
Ontario eduction absolutely should be reformed.
Northern Light
Superstar
Agreed. I think the requisite butt-covering could be found, if all of Teams Blue, Red and Orange agreed to a binding referendum on the subject. I feel confident a merger would pass, and then no one party could be targeted for that; the Feds would rubber stamp the required constitutional amendment, as they did for Newfoundland and Quebec; and we would instantly have a better balance of capacity among schools; and book savings in the range of 1B-2.2B per year. All of which should be reinvested in the system in improved remedial programs, summer school, help for struggling students and lower class sizes in the middle/upper grades; along with necessary capital investments.
kamira51
Active Member
Absolutely phenomenal, why are we paying for duplicate school services, paying for the same management roles, etc.
It's such a waste of our tax money.
Northern Light
Superstar
The answer, originally lies in the Constitution and minority rights. When the country was founded (1867) the political deal reached was essentially one between 'French' and English' and, at the time, that also meant between Catholic and Protestant respectively.
The 'public' school system was, in point of fact, protestant. People tend to forget that. But even when I was a kid (we're talking the 80s here), you recited the Lord's Prayer every single day following O'Canada.
Bible verses were standard material for public speaking. By that time, the schools weren't even thought of as protestant, but those were vestiges of an earlier era yet to be disposed of........
When the constitutional deal was made, outside of a small Irish minority, the assumption was that Catholic schools would be the French Schools and Public/Protestant schools the English Schools.
It was only later, due to extensive immigration from non-French, Catholic countries (notably Italy) that we saw Catholic schools in English Canada become a more significant force, in English education.
Likewise, the secularization of Quebec in the 1960s led to the idea that French wasn't merely for the Catholics, and that was also driven by the exodus of Quebecers into Toronto in the FLQ/PLQ era.
Most of those were anglos, but not all, but many/most spoke French and wanted their kids to retain that ability.
Hence a system now out of step w/the times.
Is is.
picard102
Senior Member
Well first of all they have Directors of Education, not CEO's.
Secondly, you can look at any budget as clearly see that the majority of it 70%+ goes to instruction (Teachers). Administrative costs are not even top 3 expenses.