Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

[LMVDR]

Now do revenue. Here's a hint, Alberta and Texas both have similar levels of revenue.

Ontario is the 4th largest government entity in North America (after US, Canada, Mexico) by revenue and has the 4th largest amount of debt. Quebec is 5th in both too IIRC.


Since division of responsibility changes from country to country, you need to consider the full stack of debt (municipal, regional, federal) as it applies to the rate payer. As a start, California's portion of the US federal debt is over $2 trillion USD, making their total debt around 2.2 trillion USD. Municipal is in addition to that but I don't know what amount.

Specious argument. California has no more control over USA debt than Ontario has over CAN debt.

Credit rating is meaningless and credit agencies are a joke. How did they rate all those sub prime mortgage bonds AAA that promptly fell to zero during the crisis?

Ontario's credit rating is only as high as it is because any agency realizes that Ontario is ultimately backstopped by the Federal Government.

And since when does the ability to go into debt make debt a desirable goal?

We should be living within our means. Wynne throws money and entitlements at her voter base (public sector unions) in order to stay in power to the tragic detriment of the rest of the province that she punishes. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken before Ontario turns into Greece and can no longer fund it's ballooning debt.

 

[ADRM]

Credit rating is meaningless

Credit ratings directly affect borrowing cost, which in turn directly affect the size of borrowing liabilities.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Specious argument. California has no more control over USA debt than Ontario has over CAN debt.

Credit rating is meaningless and credit agencies are a joke. How did they rate all those sub prime mortgage bonds AAA that promptly fell to zero during the crisis?

Ontario's credit rating is only as high as it is because any agency realizes that Ontario is ultimately backstopped by the Federal Government.

And since when does the ability to go into debt make debt a desirable goal?

We should be living within our means. Wynne throws money and entitlements at her voter base (public sector unions) in order to stay in power to the tragic detriment of the rest of the province that she punishes. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken before Ontario turns into Greece and can no longer fund it's ballooning debt.

No offense, but I'd rather trust credit agencies than emotional sky is falling arguments that don't hold up to scrutiny. I suppose comparing us to Greece is the final straw.

I look forward to the PCs proposing to stand tough against the doctors and the police unions and other "special interests" while attempting to grow some of the least productive segments of the Ontario economy, because the lord knows government policy will bring back what the low dollar couldn't. Perhaps the developers (or weed) will pay for it like they did with the subway he promised back when he was a little less rarefied.

Or hell, just give everyone some to smoke while they stare at those wind turbines.

AoD

 

[zang]

It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken before Ontario turns into Greece and can no longer fund it's ballooning debt.

Greece! Anyone here have Greece on their Conservative-False-Fiscal-Analogy Bingo Card?

 

[LMVDR]

Greece! Anyone here have Greece on their Conservative-False-Fiscal-Analogy Bingo Card?

Childish mockery is not an argument.

Ontario will end up like Greece if the current government continues its profligate irresponsible spending and corruption. Your mockery is pathetic.

An ancient article (2011) and conditions have only deteriorated since:

http://www.macleans.ca/general/why-ontario-is-poised-to-become-canadas-greece/

The Liberals have turned Ontario from a HAVE Province to a HAVE NOT Province.

Tragic.

 

[animatronic]

So, not to disrupt the lovely dissertation on sub-sovereign debt, but here's some interesting stuff that's Ford related:

He's on record for saying he's made lots of charitable donations, including $50k for parks, his entire Councillor salary etc.. But his name doesn't show anywhere on United Way or other honour rolls. So poked around a bit.

He said he'd donate $50k to Toronto Parks in July 2013. There is a charitable foundation for this called www.torontoparksandtrees.ca. In 2013 they didn't report any donations, but in 2014 they reported $50k from another charity and $410,275 in tax-receiptable donations. In 2015 the foundation recorded $143k in receiptable donations.

So the $50k looks like it could be from Doug, but that means he donated through a difference charity and it took at least 6 months to get to the parks. On the second count the $410,275 is roughly similar to his salary but all backloaded to his final year (once he announced a run for mayor).

Probably worth poking around a bit to see what's going on.

 

[ADRM]

Childish mockery is not an argument.

Ontario will end up like Greece if the current government continues its profligate irresponsible spending and corruption. Your mockery is pathetic.

This is patently ridiculous. Ontario's debt-to-GDP ratio is less than 40%, with a GDP growth rate of just under 3%. Greece's debt-to-GDP ratio is about 180% with a GDP growth rate of somewhere around 1%.

Not the same universe, let alone ballpark.

 

[old boy]

Childish mockery is not an argument.

Ontario will end up like Greece if the current government continues its profligate irresponsible spending and corruption. Your mockery is pathetic.

An ancient article (2011) and conditions have only deteriorated since:

http://www.macleans.ca/general/why-ontario-is-poised-to-become-canadas-greece/

The Liberals have turned Ontario from a HAVE Province to a HAVE NOT Province.

Tragic.

Yes, and maybe Doug Ford can re-open the coal plants - that won't cost much. Those big signs, " Open for Business Again ", are sure going to bring a windfall.

 

[steveintoronto]

Oh the cliches! Has this person absolutely no sense of researching claims rather than Cooing like a Cuckoo?

Specious argument. California has no more control over USA debt than Ontario has over CAN debt.

Credit rating is meaningless and credit agencies are a joke. How did they rate all those sub prime mortgage bonds AAA that promptly fell to zero during the crisis?

Ontario's credit rating is only as high as it is because any agency realizes that Ontario is ultimately backstopped by the Federal Government.

And since when does the ability to go into debt make debt a desirable goal?

Without prejudice, you haven't a clue. But again, keep it up, because miming mantras like you do is classic Ford gearbox whine. And Wynne will have a heyday with it. In fact, I'm starting to relish it.

I'm from a Conservative background, my father was an elected rep in the UK, I've voted both sides of centre, last time I voted in this nation, it was for a Conservative who was subsequently elected PM. That was a couple of generations ago. Cons back in those days were educated, aware, accountable and with very few exceptions, not idiots. I guess those days are gone...not just in this nation, but in many.

Speaking of "Conservative"...no one delights in blowing apart the wild rants of persons like Ford more than Conservatives themselves. Read the National Post the last few days by any chance? With hardly an exception of authors, they think Ford is not only a danger to himself, but a danger to true Conservatism.

And speaking of California, which you obviously haven't a clue about, from a very *Conservative* website:

[...]
Along with Alaska, the states of Illinois, Connecticut, New Mexico, and Ohio rank as the worst in the nation for unfunded pension liabilities per person. When looking at unfunded liabilities as a whole, the states of California, New York, Illinois, Ohio, and Texas rank as the worst five states in the nation.

Some states, such as Utah, Arizona, Alaska, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and Michigan have made attempts to solve their liability crisis by implementing reforms. For example, Arizona governor Doug Ducey implemented reforms focusing on cost-of-living adjustments. The reform is expected to save taxpayers $1.5 billion over the next three decades. Pennsylvania also made reforms such as creating a defined-contribution component for every school district and state employee, giving employees more retirement options such as a 401(k) style plan.

"Absent fundamental reform, broken pension systems threaten the financial sustainability of state budgets and the financial future of public servants," said Jonathan Williams, chief economist at ALEC. "Taxpayers, workers, and retirees will all share in the burden unless policymakers make significant changes."

The report says that lawmakers and officials should be held responsible, and one way to do this is by ensuring that all financial information be made transparent to the public online in an accessible format.

"Transparency enables voters, taxpayers and all stakeholders to access, research and understand the operations of the government and hold lawmakers and officials accountable for their actions," the report states. "For more than a decade, ALEC has called on state and local governments to put their budgets online, in an accessible format for all taxpayers to see." [...]

http://freebeacon.com/issues/unfunded-liabilities-state-public-pensions-top-6-trillion-2017/

Save yourself some embarrassment, and Google "Off ledger liability US states"...and get back to us. Comic relief is necessary in today's stressful lifestyle.

Ontario's debt, examined by international agencies many times, always comes out about 'middle of the pack' for OECD nations. But hey, don't let us hold back your hysterics...that's all Ford has, so keep marching in step there, and miming the mantras. Gives us time to get our supply of popcorn before the show begins.

 

[animatronic]

Can we call to question on the debt discussion?

 

[steveintoronto]

Can we call to question on the debt discussion?

Dunno, ask Dougie.

 

[steveintoronto]

That may be unwise, he is a bellwether, a master of mantras, a loyal parrot that announces what to expect from His Douginess given a real debate, not the pillow fight at Con Central.

That's why the debt-discussion is so important. It will be rampant from His Douginess, and Douginess hasn't a clue on what it's all about. It's just an involuntary kneejerk that comes out his mouth. Sad.

 

[Jasmine18]

To most voters the liberals seem to have made a mess of the finances and going back into debt will just reinforce Dougs narrative.

Doug will say 'those liberals just increased our taxes and put our province in debt by 100's of billions'

Wynee 'well our debt it only 40% of GDP'

Yes Canada is not America, but it is becoming clear elections are based on narratives then facts and what narrative is more interesting there to the avg voter?

 

[SunriseChampion]

Credit rating is meaningless and credit agencies are a joke.

My friend, you're back! Wikkid.
You best hope they're not meaningless if you want to prevent the horror event you're predicting from coming true. You obviously know that credit ratings help determine your cost of borrowing so I don't even know why I just wrote this.

And since when does the ability to go into debt make debt a desirable goal?

Debt is not a desirable goal and I don't think anyone would say otherwise. Debt may be a necessary means to a desirable end.

We should be living within our means.

Oh, no, the comedy hour is over. You're speaking sensibly now.

Wynne throws money and entitlements at her voter base (public sector unions) in order to stay in power to the tragic detriment of the rest of the province that she punishes. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken before Ontario turns into Greece and can no longer fund it's ballooning debt.

I haven't been punished. What entitlements do you speak of that are specifically targeted at union members?

Now you're bringing up Greece without having answered my questions about which Venezuela you were talking about yesterday (other than clearly not the real one). Don't do it. I don't think you know what you're talking about entirely.
Do you know why Greece was in such bad shape?

 

[SunriseChampion]

Childish mockery is not an argument.

Ontario will end up like Greece if the current government continues its profligate irresponsible spending and corruption. Your mockery is pathetic.

An ancient article (2011) and conditions have only deteriorated since:

http://www.macleans.ca/general/why-ontario-is-poised-to-become-canadas-greece/

The Liberals have turned Ontario from a HAVE Province to a HAVE NOT Province.

Tragic.

No, we won't end up like friggin' Greece. That article doesn't say we will end up like Greece. It likens Ontario being to Canada what Greece was (is....no, Italy is out to hurt ya) to the EU, if anything. Not that we will become mired in a hole so deep that it will end up wiping away years of GDP growth.
Anyway, that was then, this is now. Have you seen economic numbers for Ontario in the last year?

Do you know why Greece ended up in such a big hole?