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Post: TTC to study fast ferries

Worst idea ever.

The Bluffs area is ridiculous - putting a ferry terminal at the base of a 40m cliff surrounded by one of the lowest density parts of the city is asinine. People who live in south Etobicoke can take the existing Lakeshore GO train line and not even have to worry about transferring to the 509/510 streetcar. Then you have to buy the stupid boats, build termini, build a garage (marina?) to service these boats and then hire a team of staff who have the exclusive jobs of running and fixing those boats. In Metro they quoted a figure of $20-25M to get a ferry system running. I call bullshit on that number.


I, too, have to ask what brought about this momentary lapse of sanity from Adam Giambrone.
 
Yes, but how would you go about fixing Queen Street? The line has been wildly unreliable and bleeding ridership for years, but the TTC hasn't so much as written a report with suggestions on how to fix it. I'm not just talking about running at a reliable headway either, though that would certainly be a good start. I also mean making travel times remotely competitive. It's absurd that it's far faster to take the bus up to the subway, and then the subway back down to get from the Beach to Queen and Yonge.
The obvious solution: another subway line, or a streetcar subway. But we all know that's not on the TTC's radar - you can't have rapid transit where there's actually demand for it...
 
Park-and-ride-reliant ferry service make more sense for a regional transit system like GO rather than the TTC. And even GO is better off just improving the Lakeshore line.

Funny how Giambrone opposes the TTC cooperating more with the rest of the GTA and now he wants the TTC to compete with GO too.
 
huh? Its only $6 (return trip included) for adults and $2.50 for children (return included)

Students under 19 pay $3.50 with student ID.

The fares aren't bad at all.

$6 dollars to go to a park is a lot, and the return is limited, if I recall correctly. Can you imagine if it cost $6 dollars every time somebody wanted to go to Central Park?

How would a streetcar subway be useful, though, if the cars just get bunched up as soon as they leave the tunnel? These cars are bunching up at Pape and Ossington, too. Will we have a subway with a streetcar that might not show up for 25 minutes? The only benefit of a short downtown tunnel seems to be easier loading, and there are much better places to spend the hundreds of millions that it would cost. Another problem is portal location. Looking down at Queens Quay, a much wider street, we'd need to take out most of a block of Queen Street at each end to build the things.

European cities operate streetcars along narrow urban streets with decent speed and clockwork punctuality. This could be achieved in Toronto if we stopped trying to use streetcars for trips better suited to a subway (or even regional rail, in the case of Long Branch) and completely revamped their operations. We should definitely hire someone to come over from Europe to take charge of streetcar operations, and empower them to force the City and TTC bureaucracy to implement their recommendations. Finally, a useful consultant!
 
I think there is somewhere that a ferry could one day be popular and useful: between the ferry docks and the portlands once they have been developed.
 
Wow. So much to catch up on.

I like Giambrone. He makes me laugh.

If I get hired to study this, and I'm angling to, I'll take you all out to dinner at Canoe, where we can stand at the window and sweep our arms across the lake in arcs, tracing the potential routes, and talk it up a bit, enjoy some fine food, and what the hell, Trius Brut, and then I'll bang out a couple of pages of notes and leave them under Adam's pillow, I mean door.

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I think there is somewhere that a ferry could one day be popular and useful: between the ferry docks and the portlands once they have been developed.

I agree, especially if the port lands actually turn out to be a more recreational neighbourhood. A decent ferry would likely not be much slower than the streetcar. The Sydney ferries have quick arrivals and departures down to a science. They don't take longer than about 15 seconds at each stop.
 
If this plan goes though we may need to restart the mid-harbour subway proposed during the Expo discussions.
More seriously, as much as I would love to see meaningful water based transit, for this to work every north-south bus route in Scarborough and Etobicoke would need to end at the docks and far more than two boats would be required, otherwise it would be more of a GO-like service which comes too infrequently to fit with other TTC services. I think that any fast-ferry transit on the waterfront will need to make sense to GO and be run by GO... perhaps eventually a Toronto to St.Catharines run.
 
Dig a big trench, and run ferries in it!
On Queen. Love it. High speed gondolas would work, too.

Another fresh idea! :)

I feel so old and frumpy suggesting a new east/west subway line.
 
Hume praises HK's Star Ferry (despite the controversial move of the Central Star Ferry pier from a well-loved brutalist pier to a Disney-meets-Edwardian architecture new pier, resulting in a 15% drop in ridership and a fare hike)

Link to article

Do you believe in ferry tales?


Jul 07, 2007 04:30 AM
Christopher Hume
Urban Affairs Columnist

You don't have to believe in magic to have faith in ferries.

From Venice to Vancouver, New York to New Zealand, ferries have been a part of the urban fabric for decades, in some cases centuries.

No matter where they ply the waters, or for what purpose, ferries provide a respite, however brief, from the daily grind. To ride on a ferry is to spend time out of time; they offer an opportunity to commune with forces that lie beyond the control of even the greatest metropolis.

There's no better example than the Star Ferry in Hong Kong, which travels between the islands that comprise the formidable city-state. Nature, of course, has long disappeared from Hong Kong, a place where a full-grown tree is a rarity. But for the few minutes spent aboard a Star boat, one feels a sense of belonging to something larger even than Hong Kong – the water.

The appeal of water, of course, is the reason we love ferries. Yes, the going can get cold and rough, but it's always mesmerizing.

That's why the prospect of a new ferry in Toronto, one that would sail between Scarborough and Etobicoke, has struck a chord with so many.

Politicians and experts have already pooh-poohed the idea, but as usual they are dead wrong.

It may be true that the demand doesn't exist now, but it will. Let's not forget that the city has embarked on a multi-billion-dollar campaign to redevelop the waterfront, and transform it into a live-work community with 100,000 residents.

For those future inhabitants, a ferry could be an ideal form of transportation, practical, accessible, and, most important, pleasurable. And how better to turn Toronto into a waterfront city that actually feels like one than by introducing ferries? The beauty of the ferry is that it's both utilitarian and romantic. In a world that has forgotten how crucial pleasure is to human existence, the ferry comes as a welcome exception to the dreariness of 21st-century commuting, and the hurry-up-and-wait life lived by countless millions of people.

How much richer is the experience of a city even as exquisite as Venice because of the vaporetti, those famous waterbuses that cruise its canals. The vessels are nothing to look at, and the lineups can be long, but the trip is worth the wait.

Venice also has the gondola, a kind of private ferry, and arguably the most distinctive boat in the world.

Then there are the enormous ferry ships found on the West coast and northern Europe, full ocean-going vessels that sail the high seas. Except in British Columbia, where they sink with alarming regularity, these ferries are hugely popular.

The truth remains, however, that the most memorable ferries are the short-run commuter boats fully integrated into the life of a city, exactly the sort of ferry proposed by TTC chair Adam Giambrone this week. Those whose daily trek includes a jaunt on the lake would consider themselves lucky, especially compared with others who must fight four-wheeled traffic every morning and night.

And let's not overlook the venerable Toronto Island ferry; as familiar as it may be, it's enough to open the eyes of the most uninterested Torontonian to the distant beauty of the city. For the duration of the trip, we get to play tourist in our own hometown.

At one point, there was a plan to move the ferry docks from their current location, hidden away behind the Westin Harbour Castle, for a site at the foot of Yonge St. It's probably too late now for that – the condos are already underway – but it was a brilliant idea.

Imagine, Toronto, a waterfront city! What a concept.

*****

Famous ferries

Star Ferry: Connects Hong Kong Island and Kowloon, carries 26 million passengers yearly.

Staten Island Ferry: Connects Manhattan and Staten Island. Considered one of New York City's great bargains, the 25-minute ride is free.

Mersey Ferry: Made famous in the 1960s by Gerry and the Pacemakers, ranks as one of the oldest in the world, operating in Liverpool since the early 13th century.

Toronto Ferries: Ferries between the city and island have operated since the 1890s. The most controversial is also one of the shortest in the world. The Toronto City Centre Airport ferry route is a mere 121 metres, which is why airport proponents want it replaced with a fixed link, a.k.a. a bridge.
The mayor may not like the idea of aqua-transit, but there's no denying that boat rides transform the urban experience into something magical
 
Well if there is one part of Hume's piece that I agree with is that it would anchor the waterfront in the psyche of Torontonians. With only smaller Harbourfront events on the waterfront and the rare trip on a dinner cruise or to the island, there isn't much that draws the average Torontonian to the waterfront on a regular basis. Summer weekends it is busy but beyond that it is relatively quiet on the waterfront. If busses in Scarborough and Etobicoke made a convenient connection to a frequent ferry it would definitely bring year round crowds to the water's edge and therefore bring more retail and other amenities feeding itself in a loop. It wouldn't be the most efficient transit system though and perhaps there are better ways to draw people to the waterfront besides necessary transit connections. A waterfront east and west streetcar with connections to the Queensway line and Kingston Rd will do a little bit but it wouldn't force people out of the vehicle at the water's edge like a commuter ferry would. A waterfront building excercise perhaps, but I doubt it would be the best improvement if the goal is to simply provide quick and efficient transit.
 

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