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PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

Videodrome said:
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Someone is oblivious!
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Indeed, I think most people blame the unvaccinated (not entirely fairly) for the continuation of covid-related restrictions and accommodating them seems NOT to be the way to encourage support. Quebec has just said they will not allow alcohol and cannabis sales to unvaccinated and Macron in France wants to 'piss them off' so that they get with it. I am certainly not in favour of compulsory (forced) vaccination but certainly agree that the un-vaccinated may find themselves laid off or fired and think that they should certainly be 'inconvenienced' by not being able to go to the LCBO.
 
Richard White said:
The point I am trying to make is that we should not be getting involved in conflicts we have no business being involved in. NATO was intended to be a defense against the USSR.
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Even though Ukraine is not part of NATO, I expect Trudeau to receive a formal request from Brussels for Canadian forces to deploy to NATO’s eastern flank within days. This would likely include a rapid expansion of the Army’s Battle Group Latvia currently under Operation Reassurance.

halifax.citynews.ca

Canadian-led battlegroup in Latvia at 'high readiness' amid NATO-Russia tensions

OTTAWA — The Canadian commander of a multinational battlegroup in Latvia says he is working to ensure his troops have enough supplies and can talk to each other, as mounting tensions between the NATO military alliance and Russia feed fears of a new w
halifax.citynews.ca halifax.citynews.ca

Keep an eye on CFB Gagetown near Fredericton and CFB Pettawa. My guess is that the twenty-odd Leopard 2 tanks plus LAVs and support vehicles of the Royal Canadian Dragoons ship out of Atlantic Canada within the next two weeks to reinforce the Canadian group in Latvia, or wherever Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) deems them necessary. Our experience in winter will be considered an asset, here’s a Canadian Leopard 2 below with a recon LAV behind.

zbu3qfiuab321.jpg


@kEiThZ what do you say? Do we have the means to rapidly load and ship such a force to Europe? What vessels? I imagine the CAF has been told to be close to the phones and to be ready to deploy, with the RCAF, RCN and Army mechanics working overtime.

On a side note, our Ukrainian-speaking deputy PM might be useful. Wikipedia also says she speaks Russian.
 
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We can airlift the tanks in a pinch. This is why we have C17s. Expensive. But doable for a small number.

That said, attacking a NATO member is a very different thing from attacking Ukraine.
 
The terms "quickly" might be a stretch. For any airlift (in ones or maybe twos at a time), armour has to get lugged to an airstrip (neither Pet nor Gagetown have), load crews, maintainers, parts, ammo, etc. Then there are the issues of anti-armour, ground-based air-defence, recon crews and equipment. We would likely have rely on allies for those. We have little expeditionary capability, let alone quickly.
 
lenaitch said:
armour has to get lugged to an airstrip (neither Pet nor Gagetown have), load crews, maintainers, parts, ammo, etc.
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CFB Gagetown has one of Canada's longer small city airstrips just down the road. I remember when I first arrived in Fredericton and wondered why this little city has a 8,000 ft (2,400 m) runway. For example, the longest runway at Victoria, BC's airport is under 7,000 ft, Regina SK's is under 8,000 ft. Fredericton's oversized runway is intended to facilitate RCAF transports supporting CFB Gagetown, like the CC-150 Polaris and CC-177 Globemaster, shown below taking off from Fredericton.


Carrying a payload of 165k lbs (the Leopard 2 tank weighs 148k lbs before fuel, ammo, spares, etc.), the Globemaster can take off from a 7,000-foot runway. Fredericton is up to the job, and with a >14% (1,000 ft) margin for error.

I used to ride my old 1960s Triumph motorcycle around the woods of Fredericton and it was not uncommon to stop at a rural gas station and to be beside a LAV (and once an original Leopard 1) getting fuel or snacks for its crew.
 
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lenaitch said:
The terms "quickly" might be a stretch. For any airlift (in ones or maybe twos at a time), armour has to get lugged to an airstrip (neither Pet nor Gagetown have), load crews, maintainers, parts, ammo, etc. Then there are the issues of anti-armour, ground-based air-defence, recon crews and equipment. We would likely have rely on allies for those. We have little expeditionary capability, let alone quickly.
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You are substantially underestimating how much and how quickly the C17s can move stuff. In terms of tonne-kms, a C17 can do over 3x what a C130 can. So basically those 5 C17s can move as much as our entire Herc fleet. And the C17s are only needed to move the tanks. We still have C130J and the Polaris fleets to move everything else. We could move 20 tanks in 3-4 days. The C17s can also carry 2-3 LAVs instead of one Leopard if needed. So if armour is needed quickly, that's an option too.

One of the real bright spots in CAF capabilities (among the few) these days is air mobility. We can move a ton in a pretty quick manner for the size of our military.
 
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I don't think Biden is going to back down and I expect NATO to put out the call for enhanced forces to it's eastern border before the end of the month. I expect Biden's already called Trudeau and other leaders to gauge/gain their commitment.

Let's hope Trudeau's new MND Anita Anand can handle more than #metoo allegations, making official apologies and driving "culture change" in the CAF.
 
Admiral Beez said:
CFB Gagetown has one of Canada's longer small city airstrips just down the road. I remember when I first arrived in Fredericton and wondered why this little city has a 8,000 ft (2,400 m) runway. For example, the longest runway at Victoria, BC's airport is under 7,000 ft, Regina SK's is under 8,000 ft. Fredericton's oversized runway is intended to facilitate RCAF transports supporting CFB Gagetown, like the CC-150 Polaris and CC-177 Globemaster, shown below taking off from Fredericton.
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Correct. If needed, they can even pull it off with less and just fly to Halifax or Gander and get more gas before crossing. The crews in Trenton have developed solid capabilities in air mobility over the last decade and a half. And the government is also slowly beginning to understand strategic infrastructure considerations like the importance of unusually long runways in certain parts of the country.
 
As a slight tangent, I hope people watching these tensions view understand why the RCAF wanted F-35s. Just imagine what is coming over the next 2-3 decades with China.
 
Admiral Beez said:
CFB Gagetown has one of Canada's longer small city airstrips just down the road. I remember when I first arrived in Fredericton and wondered why this little city has a 8,000 ft (2,400 m) runway. For example, the longest runway at Victoria, BC's airport is under 7,000 ft, Regina SK's is under 8,000 ft. Fredericton's oversized runway is intended to facilitate RCAF transports supporting CFB Gagetown, like the CC-150 Polaris and CC-177 Globemaster, shown below taking off from Fredericton.


Carrying a payload of 165k lbs (the Leopard 2 tank weighs 148k lbs before fuel, ammo, spares, etc.), the Globemaster can take off from a 7,000-foot runway. Fredericton is up to the job, and with a >14% (1,000 ft) margin for error.

I used to ride my old 1960s Triumph motorcycle around the woods of Fredericton and it was not uncommon to stop at a rural gas station and to be beside a LAV (and once an original Leopard 1) getting fuel or snacks for its crew.
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kEiThZ said:
You are substantially underestimating how much and how quickly the C17s can move stuff. In terms of tonne-kms, a C17 can do over 3x what a C130 can. So basically those 5 C17s can move as much as our entire Herc fleet. And the C17s are only needed to move the tanks. We still have C130J and the Polaris fleets to move everything else. We could move 20 tanks in 3-4 days. The C17s can also carry 2-3 LAVs instead of one Leopard if needed. So if armour is needed quickly, that's an option too.

One of the real bright spots in CAF capabilities (among the few) these days is air mobility. We can move a ton in a pretty quick manner for the size of our military.
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All good points, but I still think the "quickly" part could be an issue. To load at, for example, Fredericton, you have first get the ground crews and all of their gear from Trenton to there and the tanks from Gagetown to the airport (not far I admit, but still). As for the armour itself, how many are deployment ready? How many crews are deployment ready? There is debate within the military if we should even retain armour so I would be wondering about their state of readiness. Best I could find, there are about 20 main battle tanks in Gagetown, in total.

Keithz is right that strategic lift is one of the few bright spots considering the size of our military.
 
lenaitch said:
Best I could find, there are about 20 main battle tanks in Gagetown, in total.
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Those are the 20 they'd likely drive down the road to the airport. It's only about 10 km. When I lived in Fredericton I once saw a Leopard I drive right up the main street past the legislature. It was armed forces day. We only have about fifty active Leopard 2 tanks, so 20 is a big send. AIUI, none are currently deployed overseas. Sending even a few sends a message to our NATO allies that we're on side.
 
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