Plans to fill in Allen Road

[Asterix]

well in my mind the city would make money on this since the land would be sold to developers who would have to pay for the construction.

Which developers do you think would be willing to spend significantly more money for the required construction at that site than they would have to spend at other nearby undeveloped or underdeveloped locations?

Which commuters do you think would be willing to deal with numerous months (years?) of blockages and road closures on the Allen as they do all the foundation piling and decking-over?

 

[junctionist]

Thank you for that information. It's doable, but I understand it would require a very dynamic real estate market and a lot of investment from the City. Upper levels of government could contribute to make it happen, seeing as it involves economic development.

 

[sixrings]

Well lets pretend the city gave them the land for half its value but the developers pay for the construction. I am sure many developers would think that this makes a lot of sense. The reality is that no matter what they would have to dig down to build parking garages.. Actually this is one of the most expensive aspects of building a building.... So in alot of ways the fact that the allen is already trenched should encourage development rather then discourage it.. PLus the government is going to have to help finance some of it anyway with the redevelopement of lawrence heights. You mention some commuters will be upset with the construction delay. These commuters will eventually be delayed why are we prolonging the inevitable. The reality is that if they choose to continue to drive they miswell look sooner then later for a new route downtown or uptown....

 

[Asterix]

Well lets pretend the city gave them the land for half its value but the developers pay for the construction. I am sure many developers would think that this makes a lot of sense. The reality is that no matter what they would have to dig down to build parking garages.. Actually this is one of the most expensive aspects of building a building.... So in alot of ways the fact that the allen is already trenched should encourage development rather then discourage it.. PLus the government is going to have to help finance some of it anyway with the redevelopement of lawrence heights. You mention some commuters will be upset with the construction delay. These commuters will eventually be delayed why are we prolonging the inevitable. The reality is that if they choose to continue to drive they miswell look sooner then later for a new route downtown or uptown....

But if the construction costs 2x (or more) what it would without having to deal with an operating expressway and subway line in your basement, would getting the land for half its value (or even for free) really be any enticement?

Where would those parking garages go? Would you now tunnel under the Allen to bury them or put them in the first 3 - 4 stories of your new buildings? (The former would be hideously expensive and the latter would sure be attractive streetscape.)

The issue with upset commuters is that they would be angry now, complaining to their councillors now not writing to their successor 15 years from now congratulating them on the good city planning. For some reason politicians don't like having upset constituents. Seems to have an impact on their electability.

The point is there is plenty of underdeveloped land that is nearby that would be far cheaper and bring far fewer headaches to politicians and developers for there to be any incentive presently for them to build much of anything over top of the Allen.

That doesn't mean it wouldn't potentially be a great neighbourhood joining project, just that it would cost far more that anyone would be willing to spend to achieve that goal.

 

[sixrings]

maybe land nearby but not as desirable... it wouldnt be close to or ontop of a subway line... I dont know why we keep assuming that the cost of developing here would be twice as much when again the allen is alreayd trenched- essentially each building would be half dug already... the garages would be located right where the road going south and north are located now.. These pieces of property wouldnt be any farther away from the subway then a ton of the buildings that are located on yonge. Look at the yonge eglinton developments. Those condos are litereally right beside Subway tracks...

 

[Asterix]

maybe land nearby but not as desirable... it wouldnt be close to or ontop of a subway line... I dont know why we keep assuming that the cost of developing here would be twice as much when again the allen is alreayd trenched- essentially each building would be half dug already... the garages would be located right where the road going south and north are located now.. These pieces of property wouldnt be any farther away from the subway then a ton of the buildings that are located on yonge. Look at the yonge eglinton developments. Those condos are litereally right beside Subway tracks...

So I take it your proposal is the complete removal of the Allen and not the decking-over that was previously being discussed on this thread?

Things would be a lot easier to build if they didn't have to be built around and overtop an active expressway.

 

[sixrings]

Do we 100% know what the proposal was for the revitalization of lawrence heights.. I think howard Moscoe mentioned both options elimating and decking over. But I dont think there was a deffinitive answer. BOB colle The MPP of this area is incharge all the way down to Eglinton. I cant believe hed be ok with the lawrence part getting fixed but the bottleneck staying at eglinton..

In short Yes Im suggestion like many are that for the cities good the ALLEN should COMPLETELY GO!

 

[Dan416]

Like all the "plans" for the Gardiner, I don't think the Allen is going anywhere. Sure burying the Gardiner or Allen are "doable". But are they practical? No. Let's waste our money on more subway lines before throwing it into the moneypit of burying expressways (cough cough, Big Dig, cough).

 

[Chuck]

That's a planning issue. Fact is the Spadina subway exists because it was a comprimise between the desire to build the Spadina expressway and having a decent mass transit system. Sheppard was intended from the start to be intensified, I doubt there was similar plans for the Spadina portion.

Alas, Toronto is a city of transportation compromises. No one really loses, but no one really wins either. We've built an alright transit system that isn't quite big enough, an alright road system with not enough highways, and a good distance of bike lanes that unfortunately share road space with cars. In trying to balance everyone's needs, Toronto has in fact made it more difficult for everyone.

It's time that Toronto chose one mode of transportation - preferably transit - and built it properly. Provide people with at least one fast, reliable way of getting around! If you're going to screw over drivers, give people a viable transit alternative. And if we refuse to expand the transit system properly, at least build more roads for those forced to drive.

The Allen exemplifies this perfectly. The highway was canceled, so they put in a poorly placed subway line instead. Both modes are present in some capacity, but neither are as effective as they could be. Jarvis will be the same once the bike lanes are built. Had they been placed on Church or Yonge instead, more people would have come out ahead city wide.

 

[Hipster Duck]

^Yes! You literally took the words straight out of my mouth: "Toronto is a city of transportation compromises"

 

[Uncle Teddy]

It was originally planned as the Spadina Expressway, expected to connect to Gardiner Expressway and cut through downtown. It was canceled and Allen Road is what remains.

The Spadina Expressway was never planned to go all the way to the Gardiner. It was meant to end at Harbord. The 427 was planned to go to the Gardiner.

 

[sixrings]

well toronto is in denial if it thinks that it can keep accomodating to the car drivers. Cities are becoming more dense and more transit friendly. These five stations are heavily underused and the area needs to be redeveloped. Torontonians should rally for this, not hide in fear to some car drivers. With a city with a decent tranist system we should really be making a push to seperate ourselves from the cities who are just starting to take transit seriously. We may be 20 years late in our transit overhall but we dont want other cities catching up to us. We instead want to lead other cities in being sustainable. It not only makes a better street life but it would help our economy. I am optimistic that with lawrence heights needing to be redeveloped and the fact that with the new eglinton lrt theres going to be at least a temperary mess with the allen that residents will push for this to become a reality. IF the rich people arround eglinton and bathurst area could buy into this they could motivate there city councillors to actually step out and to argue for this.. It could be a realty.

 

[Dan416]

sixrings your anti-car rhetoric is getting tiring really quickly. We all support improved public transit. But punishing drivers isn't going to score any points with the people you're trying to encourage to take a bus or train.

 

[sixrings]

Well I dont feel Im at all anti car.. Actually yesterday I was trying to convince my wife to let me buy a classic BMW or Alfa Romeo.. IN fact I love cars. The thing is I believe they have their place. Just like transit has its place. But honestly the allen is no cars place. Its a dead end street that haas no possible way of getting fixed, THE SPADINA ExpRESSWAY is not going to hapopen.. However transit too should have its place. The fact that there is going to be a MAJOR transit intersection with the Eglinto LRT and the Spadina subway screams that this is a place that should be redeveloped to be more pedestrian oriented.

I support 427 extentions, some 401 widening and shocking enough dispite living so close to the garnder (KING and UNIVERSITY) I am not sold on the fact that taking down the gardner is good for the city.

I hate these ANTI CAR conversations or ANTI TRANSIT conversations. AGAIN everything should have its place. A city full of comprimises like some have suggested helps no one.. supporting mized use and no allen doesnt make me anti CAR. ANd damn it come over and check out my garage in a few months if you dont believe me.

 

[adma]

Maybe one other fallacy we're dealing with here is the notion that "fixing" the Allen automatically means building over its footprint and self-consciously effacing all evidence that there was any roadway here...