News   Apr 18, 2024
 1K     3 
News   Apr 18, 2024
 307     0 
News   Apr 18, 2024
 673     1 

Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

not sure what the mix is at Atlanta.

Atlanta's runways are near parallel (8L/26R, 8R26L, 9L/27R, 9R/27L, 10/28). The airport is the primary hub of AirTran Airways, Delta Air Lines, and Delta Connection partner Atlantic Southeast Airlines; the Delta hub is the world's largest airline hub. Delta Air Lines flew 59.01% of passengers from the airport in February of 2011, AirTran flew 17.76%, and Atlantic Southeast Airlines flew 13.86%. Overall, they've had about the same mix and issue with cargo/smaller planes restraining capacity. It's just that their design allows simultaneous landings while ours are staggered.

With the fifth runway, Hartsfield–Jackson is one of only a few airports that can perform triple simultaneous landings. The fifth runway increased the capacity for landings and take-offs by 40%, from an average of 184 flights per hour to 237 flights per hour (240k daily passengers).
 
If the landing fees are lower than Pearson, I could see Pickering being the cargo and low cost airport. It could be the hub for WestJet, for example, or Air Transat. That would make more sense than splitting the two airports between international/cross-border and domestic traffic. I'm sure quite a lot of international traffic originates from other domestic airports (the guy who travels from Winnipeg through YYZ to Frankfurt, for example), so making him sit on an Air Canada shuttle bus for an hour on the 407 might just be a boon to other airports and leave us with a Mirabel-like disaster.
 
Last edited:
If the landing fees are lower than Pearson, I could see Pickering being the cargo and low cost airport. It could be the hub for WestJet, for example, as well as the airport that Air Transit and . That would make more sense than splitting the two airports between international/cross-border and domestic traffic. I'm sure quite a lot of international traffic originates from other domestic airports (the guy who travels from Winnipeg through YYZ to Frankfurt, for example), so making him sit on an Air Canada shuttle bus for an hour on the 407 might just be a boon to other airports and leave us with a Mirabel-like disaster.

I'm thinking the same thing. WestJet would leap at the opportunity to be a prime tenant at Pickering (would they pay part of the construction cost? Not likely), and given their business relationship with SouthWest would likely bring them over as well. That right there would give Pickering acess to a majority of destinations in North America, with a low fee selling point. Once you have access to Montreal, New York, LA, and Vancouver you pretty much have a connection to the rest of the world.

With a low fee model many charter airlines would probably reloacte as well. Air Transat, Sunwing, etc generally fly direct and have little to no connections. So they wouldn't be married to any one airport. Add in GA and you have a pretty decent airport going.

My concern is that GTAA would be building the airport and would they really want to build Pickering to be that competitive with Pearson. I'm just not sure how they'd envision the two airports operating under their one umbrella.

If it is built a dedicated high speed connection between the two, along the 407 ROW should really be built to limit the travel between the two airports in the event that there are connecting passengers between them. I could be an extension of the GO 407 busway or a completely separate entity.
 
Similarily, I could see a scenario in which a HSR spur would pass close to Ottawa's airport, thereby increasing the feasibility of increasing the number of international flights into Ottawa and taking a bit of pressure off Dorval and for Pearson (for those with final destinations on the east side of the GTA or don't mind taking a cheaper, but longer flight/train).

Ottawa also has capacity to handle more flights. The new terminal is only 10 years old, with the newest expansion being completed only a couple of years ago. There is also plenty of room to expand the terminal to where the old terminal was (which is now just being used as apron).
 
If the landing fees are lower than Pearson, I could see Pickering being the cargo and low cost airport. It could be the hub for WestJet, for example, as well as the airport that Air Transit and . That would make more sense than splitting the two airports between international/cross-border and domestic traffic. I'm sure quite a lot of international traffic originates from other domestic airports (the guy who travels from Winnipeg through YYZ to Frankfurt, for example), so making him sit on an Air Canada shuttle bus for an hour on the 407 might just be a boon to other airports and leave us with a Mirabel-like disaster.

I agree with this. Move most the cargo to Pickering, as well as a few select carriers who do limited routes (WestJet for example). It may also allow for some newer smaller airlines to start doing a couple routes, following the Porter template.

I think Pickering is very well suited from a transportation perspective to be a good cargo hub. It will have direct connection to the 407, and there will likely be several spur highways built between the 407 and the 401. Wasn't there a plan to build one of these connectors around Lake Ridge Road?

There are also a couple of freight lines that pass very close to those lands. A spur line wouldn't be too much of a stretch. It would also place increasing pressure on Metrolinx to build the Midtown GO line, as it would pass right by there as well. Theoretically, you could do an ARL that went from Pickering to Union to Pearson.

EDIT: An expansion of the Hamilton Airport could be helpful for cargo traffic in the west end. Land at Pickering for all cargo going east, land at Hamilton for all cargo going west.
 
If the landing fees are lower than Pearson, I could see Pickering being the cargo and low cost airport. It could be the hub for WestJet, for example, as well as the airport that Air Transit and . That would make more sense than splitting the two airports between international/cross-border and domestic traffic. I'm sure quite a lot of international traffic originates from other domestic airports (the guy who travels from Winnipeg through YYZ to Frankfurt, for example), so making him sit on an Air Canada shuttle bus for an hour on the 407 might just be a boon to other airports and leave us with a Mirabel-like disaster.

Oh, very much agreed. The nature of connections means short of Mirabel-style directives to the contrary, the industry would never naturally gravitate to a model where one airport is all-international and one is all-domestic. If we take as a starting point that the 747/A380-type runs to Frankfurt and Tokyo are staying at YYZ, then it means there'll still be a lot of Winnipeg-YYZ and Ottawa-YYZ plane movements.

All signs for now are that any Pickering Airport that goes ahead will be a GTAA-run facility, so they'd price landing fees at both YYZ and Pickering to maximize their take. A big x-factor in all this is Hamilton, which is not GTAA-run, and I think that distinction may explain why there's been a lot of parochial squabbling going on even at the airport operator level as to whether Pickering is needed.

The Hamilton Authority has been quite outspoken in viewing Pickering as a needless competitor... to listen to the Hamilton folks, the whole Pickering project is an attempt from the big bad GTAA to waste government dollars to stop their plucky little airport from continuing to skim off some of Pearson's overflow, particularly its cargo market. One assumes the key factor in cargo movements is landing fees and relative placement of the airport with the regional warehousing and logistics infrastructure. Seeing as that's skewed to the western side of the GTA already, I honestly don't know if getting a new, eastern option is really super-helpful, but I guess that presupposes that acres upon acres of farmland along the 407 extension aren't going to be converted into Bramalea-style forklift sprawl by then.

Hamilton also figures in the question of whether we need another low-cost passenger hub. Thought it was interesting you mentioned WestJet... Although the Ryanair/Southwest business model loomed large in WestJet's initial planning in the mid-'90s, even in the pre-9/11 heyday of folks predicting that cut-rate airlines would conquer the universe and that Michael O'Leary was the smartest man on earth, WJ never really went wholeheartedly all the way to that end of the airline service model spectrum---their service has never been so self-congratulatorily austere as the real low-cost fundamentalists, and they've never had things like unassigned cattle-call seating. From my perspective, over the past 5-10 years WestJet's been sliding pretty systematically back along the service model spectrum towards being a regularly-priced orthodox carrier, albeit with some legacy trappings of its salad days (i.e. the one-class cabins, and the standard roster of flight attendant jokes about fastening seatbelts).

The reason I mention this is that when WestJet first moved into Ontario around 2000, the management still seemed relatively focused on being a Canadian take on Ryanair/Southwest, and the learned-wisdom from those carriers was to go into a low-cost peripheral airport, not the main internationals. So true to that form, they went with Hamilton, not Pearson, as their Ontario hub, and that was tried for about 3 years before that plan was discarded and they decided paying the higher landing fees for Pearson were worth it. Now, given the rate of change in the airline industry, nobody has the slightest clue what sort of service model WestJet will be running in 2027 or whether they'll even exist, but I think the WestJet Hamilton experience suggests that it's easier said than done to assume the carriers would be racing to move their flights away from Pearson and all the connecting flight options that come with it.

The other folks that have had some success with secondary airports are the international charter carriers, the Thomas Cooks and such, who don't care so much about being plugged into a feeder network of domestic flights... Gatwick is sort of a good example of an airport with that focus. Again, Hamilton's dabbled with trying to lure that sector (Flyglobespan was there briefly, which didn't quite work out) but it never quite stuck. Perhaps it's just a case of Hamilton being just a little too far away to lure GTA customers, and being unfortunately placed on the same side of Toronto as Pearson rather than having it's own lobe of 905 to itself. Pickering would have a leg up on them on both accounts there.
 
I think Pickering is very well suited from a transportation perspective to be a good cargo hub. It will have direct connection to the 407, and there will likely be several spur highways built between the 407 and the 401. Wasn't there a plan to build one of these connectors around Lake Ridge Road?

When the provincial government under Mike Harries sold the 407 years ago, there was agreement that no new highways (excluding extending the 407) would be built anywhere near 407, but transit systems (eg GO Transit) are still permitted to be built.

The only ones who will benefit from this are the owners of the 407, I wouldn't be surprise if they've been lobbying to have the airport built sooner than later.
 
When the provincial government under Mike Harries sold the 407 years ago, there was agreement that no new highways (excluding extending the 407) would be built anywhere near 407, but transit systems (eg GO Transit) are still permitted to be built.

The only ones who will benefit from this are the owners of the 407, I wouldn't be surprise if they've been lobbying to have the airport built sooner than later.

That's interesting. Why is it that I remember then that as part of the 407 extension project, they're building a couple "connector" highways between the 407 and the 401?
 
When the provincial government under Mike Harries sold the 407 years ago, there was agreement that no new highways (excluding extending the 407) would be built anywhere near 407, but transit systems (eg GO Transit) are still permitted to be built.

More specifically, this was parallel highways. Intersecting the 407 with north/south routes is perfectly okay.
 
That's interesting. Why is it that I remember then that as part of the 407 extension project, they're building a couple "connector" highways between the 407 and the 401?

I remember years ago that it was the condition for privatization of the 407. But still for a "connection" using Lake Ridge Road will require additional expropriation of land. Something they haven't done since the 70's
 
More specifically, this was parallel highways. Intersecting the 407 with north/south routes is perfectly okay.

Only if they where connected prior to 1999 agreement, when the 99 year lease took effect(eg. 400 & 404). Although they may get it connected at the 407 extension which the province will own (for now). However the other hurdle would be to buy/expropriate land for the connection, something that isn't proving easy for the current 407 extension eastward.

But it's logical that such restrictions exist. If you where the owners of the 407, wouldn't you want all the cargo and passenger traffic from the airport to go on your highway than your competitor?

-- Update --

There are going to be extensions to the 401 from the 407, but none in Pickering, so if you wanted to go from the planed airport land to Toronto using the 401 without using any city streets, you'll have to take the 407 eastwards to Whitby, then go south on the "West Durham Link" and go back west on the 401.
 
Last edited:
Pearson has a very ample runway layout and plenty of room for new terminal space. There's absolutely no reason why we should need a new commercial airport for the foreseeable future. Pearson isn't even growing that fast these days and it's no longer even in the top 30 worldwide. Still, Pearson is a successful, world-class airport because it is a major hub. Trying to split traffic would completely destroy Toronto's role as a hub.

If anything, we need more space for GA but it seems nuts to me to build a billion-dollar new airfield on prime farmland just so that we can build some condos at Buttonville. There are plenty of other airfields in the GTA that could easily handle all of the general aviation to relieve Pearson. Markham and Brampton could get some modest expansion and Oshawa and Hamilton could easily serve people on the edges. Hamilton already serves effectively as a cargo airport, and belly cargo will be going to Pearson anyway.

NextGen also promises dramatic increases in throughput without runway improvements just about the time that Pickering will be coming into service. It may be completely unnecessary.

In the longer term, the most interesting thing is that Pearson's airfield is very spacious. Runways need to be separated by 1,310m to allow them to operate independently. There is nearly 3,000 metres between the planned northern close parallel and the northernmost southern close parallel. That means that there would be room to "pave down the middle" and add a third independent parallel at the heart of the airfield. It would require the removal of some of the warehouses around Netherhart Rd and relocation of some of the infield cargo terminals, but that's minuscule compared to what St. Louis demolished for its now-unnecessary third independent parallel. It would be even easier to build if it were, say, 7,000ft which would generally be sufficient for anything up to a 737/A320. That would accommodate the vast majority of movements and still leave four runways for widebodies. Terminal 3 would also have to be replaced with a new building slightly to the north, extending up through the old Boeing lands. Replacing T3 is already part of GTAA's long-term plans. Such a new runway would give Toronto a comparable capacity to Atlanta, not including the NextGen benefits, which should be sufficient for most of the century.
 
If Hamilton International Airport was on the other side of the city [Near or in Burlington] It would be a lot more successful as it is located near the QEW and 403. The current airport is just too far west...

An Airport in Burlington {Near 407 & Guelph Line Area} would have been perfect...but its too late for that now anyway...
 
There is absolutely no need for an additional facility. Pearson is not near or even close to capacity as is, and has plenty of room to expand. I know this is all repeated information, but I am seriously frustrated by comments that make it seem like Pickering is remotely worthwhile. Its not! Prime farmland or not, this is a complete and utter cash-grab and will result in some serious problems down the line.

Simply put, this is absolute horse-sh-t and people are buying right into it. As many people have stated in earlier comments, we are not even close to the passenger traffic numbers of Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam, Paris or even Madrid and here they (GTAA) are discussing a brand new airport? Pearson handles 30+ million passengers a year, and even at its most busiest times, Pearson doesn't compare to a regular day at Heathrow or Schiphol.

Sadly, we will be lead down the path of misconstrued truths and figures, and ultimately, the government will cough up money, tax incentives and land and boom! A white-elephant ensues.

p5
 
There is absolutely no need for an additional facility. Pearson is not near or even close to capacity as is, and has plenty of room to expand. I know this is all repeated information, but I am seriously frustrated by comments that make it seem like Pickering is remotely worthwhile. Its not! Prime farmland or not, this is a complete and utter cash-grab and will result in some serious problems down the line.

Simply put, this is absolute horse-sh-t and people are buying right into it. As many people have stated in earlier comments, we are not even close to the passenger traffic numbers of Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam, Paris or even Madrid and here they (GTAA) are discussing a brand new airport? Pearson handles 30+ million passengers a year, and even at its most busiest times, Pearson doesn't compare to a regular day at Heathrow or Schiphol.

Sadly, we will be lead down the path of misconstrued truths and figures, and ultimately, the government will cough up money, tax incentives and land and boom! A white-elephant ensues.

p5
The projections are for 20-30 years from now, that's just 3% growth per year. Obviously we will have years like recently where capacity is bottlenecked, but new construction eliminates these and we see a spike and then resumption on natural growth. In that same timeframe, we expect 4-5 million new Ontarians and 10-15 million new Canadians. If you'd looked at the report, you'd have seen that the figures take future expansion into account. Or do you have some alternative facts available?

Beyond all that, if travelling out of Pearson ever became near the experience of flying from Heathrow, I'd start taking the train to Montreal and fly from there.
 

Back
Top