micheal_can
Senior Member
Are you willing to see that happen throughout the GTA? If you are, housing construction will cease to happen. All "vacant" land is farmland.
|
|
|
Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)
- Thread starter wyliepoon
- Start date
Are you willing to see that happen throughout the GTA? If you are, housing construction will cease to happen. All "vacant" land is farmland.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Pearson is quiet. Billy Bishop isn't seeing Porter flying.
At Calgary, they expect 5 years to get back to precovid numbers.
Still don't see the need for anew airport in Pickering.
MarkBrooks
Active Member
Then you are confusing passenger aviation capacity with the need for a new utility / industrial airport, two different issues.
Waterloo, now the busiest airport in the country, is refusing to expand beyond its current masterplan ( and why should they? )
oshawa is pushing business away and buttonville hangars are full.
BTW, when Pickering opens , the first passenger operations on the field are expected to use new 19 seat short haul hybrid electric aircraft now under development.
And in case you want to try and argue that aviation is not Important :
Canada’s Biggest Post Pandemic Problem - Restarting Aviation - Friends of Pickering Airport
Print 🖨 PDF 📄 eBook 📱By Mark Brooks Canada’s largest trading partner, the United States of America, is shifting gears, and is set to come roaring out of the pandemic. Every adult in the US (that wants one) will have a vaccine by May 1st, and the CDC has given the OK for the fully […]
pickeringairport.org
micheal_can
Senior Member
This pandemic has proven aviation is not important. I did notice you left Hamilton off of your list. I wonder why that is?Then you are confusing passenger aviation capacity with the need for a new utility / industrial airport, two different issues.
Waterloo, now the busiest airport in the country, is refusing to expand beyond its current masterplan ( and why should they? )
oshawa is pushing business away and buttonville hangars are full.
BTW, when Pickering opens , the first passenger operations on the field are expected to use new 19 seat short haul hybrid electric aircraft now under development.
And in case you want to try and argue that aviation is not Important :
Canada’s Biggest Post Pandemic Problem - Restarting Aviation - Friends of Pickering Airport
Print 🖨 PDF 📄 eBook 📱By Mark Brooks Canada’s largest trading partner, the United States of America, is shifting gears, and is set to come roaring out of the pandemic. Every adult in the US (that wants one) will have a vaccine by May 1st, and the CDC has given the OK for the fully […]
Northern Light
Superstar
Hems.........haws.............2 posters who like to post about their favourite fantasy projects arguing..............
Should I intervene?
Nope.......
Should I intervene?
Nope.......
micheal_can
Senior Member
Hems.........haws.............2 posters who like to post about their favourite fantasy projects arguing..............
Should I intervene?
Nope.......
My fantasy projects are rail related. My way to beat boredom of a stay at home lock down is to troll the trolls with facts that prove them horribly wrong.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Hems.........haws.............2 posters who like to post about their favourite fantasy projects arguing..............
Should I intervene?
Nope.......
You are better than me. I can't resist...
Isn't Hamilton a suitable airport for cargo operations?
See above, since when did Buttonville and Oshawa have cargo operations?
You spend the bulk of this post talking about the need for a utility/industrial (read cargo) airport, then jump to talking about passenger operations at Pickering. ??? ??? ??? What happened to the need for a cargo airport?
Regarding the hybrid electric aircraft. C I T A T I O N needed! What airline will fly these small short haul planes out of Pickering? Air Canada? Nope they are married to Pearson for at least the next couple decades. Westjet? They are similarly married to Pearson. One of the new budget carriers (canada jets, Flair)? They won't want to fly short haul flights, their models focus on having one aircraft that can reach every major city in Canada (hence the A220, A320, B737's). What will the passenger fares look like with only 19 passengers and where will these aircraft fly such that the airline can turn a profit? There may not bee a fuel expense but there is still staffing costs (pilot, co pilot, FA, ground staff), airport fees, aircraft lease/financing costs, etc, etc, etc. What destinations exist in the ~1,000 NM range where demand is suited to a 19 seat aircraft?
micheal_can
Senior Member
Sorry to have woken the bear. The more I see what he posts, the more I understand that really, the Pickering Airport will not be for passenger use. It won't be for cargo. It will be for General Aviation, which will serve owners of little planes. In other words, another pet project to serve the rich.
MarkBrooks
Active Member
I got to admit that watching you guys talk to each other and reinforce your own false assumptions is an eye opener. A reminder to myself and other aviation ”propeller heads” tracking the building momentum in new aviation technology about the public perception /knowledge gap.
You need to start with a simply question. In 2029 what will be flying and where will it be going? The answer is a whole new set of technologies and missions are expected to be added to existing general aviation airports that already have no room to expand.
Let’s start with the growing demand for more of today’s usual mix of flight training, companies running charters of people and supply’s , Civic support flights (air ambulance and police utility flights), numerous helicopters missions and Private pilots enjoying the freedom to fly to locations far and near that are not serviced by the airlines. Plus all the usual mix of supporting maintenance and administrative functions.
Then we add in a new set of possibilities created by the new airframes just now being announced. So when a government report like the ASA suggests building a new airport to support “ specially passenger aviation”, utility and new industrial uses, what are they talking about?
I refer you to two posts, the first is on the future of general aviation :
https://pickeringairport.org/unleashing-a-golden-age/
And second in reference to specialty passenger aviation and regional or short haul passenger aviation.
https://pickeringairport.org/planning-canadas-electric-flight-future/
I understand that several of you are in motivated to attack Aviation by your advocacy of a Canadian national High speed rail network. And yes the dawn of electric aviation will make passenger aviation cheaper, faster and zero emissions all with a land footprint of only a fraction of High speed rail. But it doesn’t mean that HSR is dead, just obsolete at a national level. HSR can still be of some value in build up city areas, say london to Toronto. High frequency rail would be a better investment over such a short distance.
A trillion dollar aviation industry is investing tens of billion in short haul electric flight. Don’t fight it, welcome it, its zero emissions carbon footprint, and the need for new aviation infrastructure to support it. Like building Pickering Airport.
Pearson will remain the preserve of large long haul aviation and the ultra rich globe trotting jet owners, Pickering is for everyone else.
You need to start with a simply question. In 2029 what will be flying and where will it be going? The answer is a whole new set of technologies and missions are expected to be added to existing general aviation airports that already have no room to expand.
Let’s start with the growing demand for more of today’s usual mix of flight training, companies running charters of people and supply’s , Civic support flights (air ambulance and police utility flights), numerous helicopters missions and Private pilots enjoying the freedom to fly to locations far and near that are not serviced by the airlines. Plus all the usual mix of supporting maintenance and administrative functions.
Then we add in a new set of possibilities created by the new airframes just now being announced. So when a government report like the ASA suggests building a new airport to support “ specially passenger aviation”, utility and new industrial uses, what are they talking about?
I refer you to two posts, the first is on the future of general aviation :
https://pickeringairport.org/unleashing-a-golden-age/
And second in reference to specialty passenger aviation and regional or short haul passenger aviation.
https://pickeringairport.org/planning-canadas-electric-flight-future/
I understand that several of you are in motivated to attack Aviation by your advocacy of a Canadian national High speed rail network. And yes the dawn of electric aviation will make passenger aviation cheaper, faster and zero emissions all with a land footprint of only a fraction of High speed rail. But it doesn’t mean that HSR is dead, just obsolete at a national level. HSR can still be of some value in build up city areas, say london to Toronto. High frequency rail would be a better investment over such a short distance.
A trillion dollar aviation industry is investing tens of billion in short haul electric flight. Don’t fight it, welcome it, its zero emissions carbon footprint, and the need for new aviation infrastructure to support it. Like building Pickering Airport.
Pearson will remain the preserve of large long haul aviation and the ultra rich globe trotting jet owners, Pickering is for everyone else.
micheal_can
Senior Member
I love how you only quote your own website. Maybe you could gain some credibility by showing support elsewhere.
Northern Light
Superstar
Mark.
No one here, including those who advocate for a second airport believes you have any inside info.
No one here, including those who advocate for a second airport believes you are impartial, objective or bring anything to the table other than talking points, and being a lobbyist of sorts.
Others just disagree with you.
Your posts don't convert anyone to your ideas. There are people who can advocate effectively; if anything you achieve the converse. More people who read your posts oppose an airport thereafter.
Please stop.
Thank you.
Last edited:
DirectionNorth
Active Member
I got to admit that watching you post articles written by yourself to boost your own position is sort of hilarious.
In 2029, there will also be a whole new set of technologies in the train sector (and in cars). Just watch the never-ending debates on the GO threads.
You talk about general aviation, for the poor. How much does a plane cost, again?
Let's start with the growing demand for online business meetings, rather than in-person meetings halfway across the world, civic support flights being in isolated areas with poor road access, and increasing costs of planes meaning private pilots will be the rich.
Really, how profitable will a 19-person flight be, unless subsidized by the government? I really hope that doesn't happen, at least not on routes with more demand or good transport access otherwise.
The government is more likely to expand Hamilton.
This is subsidizing hobby planes for rich people. There are other airports, other than Pearson, that exist around the Toronto area. Hamilton is announcing expansion. Supply and demand work in funny ways, don't they?
I understand that you are motivated to attack VIA Rail by your advocacy of air travel. The dawn of HFR will make passenger rail travel cheaper, faster and less emissions all with a land footprint of only a fraction of air travel. But it doesn’t mean that GA is dead, just obsolete at a national level. GA can still be of some value in isolated areas, such as Northern Ontario.
Canada's GDP is not above 2 trillion dollars. Hard to believe.
The government is seriously considering supporting HFR. Don't fight it, welcome it, it's zero emissions carbon footprint, and the need for new rail infrastructure to support it. Like HFR.
Pearson will remain the preserve of passenger aviation. It's not squeezed by supply, the GTAA doesn't project needing a new runway anytime soon and it plans to expand its terminals. You're not the only one who's read the Master Plan.
Pickering is for the people who can afford flights, and GA, so rich people. This is the base of my opposition to Pickering (and increased air travel in general.)
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Well considering that air craft types generally are in production for about 20 years (the 737 and 747 are exceptions on the long lived side, and the 380 is the exception on the short lived side), and continue to fly for decades after production has ended. Let's take a look at the current passenger air frame market shall we? From Airbus we have the A220 launched in 2016 expected EOP (End Of Production) 2036, the A31x/32x revamped in 2016 with NEO (new engine option) expected EOP 2036, the A330 revamped in 2018 with NEO expected EOP 2039, the A350 launched in 2015 expected EOP 2035. As far as I know Airbus has no plans to introduce any new airliners over the next 10 years. Over at Boeing we have the 737Max revamped from the 737NG's in 2017 expected EOP 2032 (this is a very old design it may not last 20 years), the 787 launched in 2011 expected EOP 2031, the 777X planned for a 2023 launch expected EOP 2043, the 747 (still in limited production) expected EOP 2032, rumored to be in planning stages is the NMA which would be launched sometime in the late 2020's. Dark horses in this race are Comac with the C919/C929 expected to launch in the late 2020's, Embraer's E2 aircraft launched in 2013 expected EOP 2033, and Mitsubishi's MRJ planes whose development is currently on hold.
So you see the skies of 2029 may look very similar to the skies we see today (pre covid)
- are electronic jet engines in development? Yes, but they are so so much in the early development stage that one cannot expect to see an abundance of E-Jets in the skies in under 9 years.
- are there plans for new aircraft types and designs? Sure the Airbus beluga flying wing is mentioned many times as possible but nothing is announced as yet. Plans to reintroduce supersonic flight to civil aviation are there, but again, not so far developed that they would have an impact in 2029
- Will planes get quieter, more fuel efficient, longer range, etc, etc, etc. Of course.
None of this changes the fact that there is zero market for a new national airline that would operate out of Pickering.
afransen
Senior Member
EVTOL will be interesting. Not that it really competes with commercial air travel, but solutions like Lilium could displace a lot of very short hop flights. They could offer service from Toronto to Kingston, North Bay (need to stop and change vehicles in Gravenhurst), London, KW. And there is a very large amount of investment pouring into that space. Will be interesting to see what can be done with improving battery chemistry and structural battery packs (making the air frame out of battery).
MarkBrooks
Active Member
All the post have multiple references, 6 on one, 12 on the other. Try reading and thinking before Commenting next time If you wish to be taken seriously.