MisterF
Senior Member
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Peterborough Commuter Rail
- Thread starter RedRocket191
- Start date
MisterF
Senior Member
Only in Canada would it be in doubt that a meto area of 120,000 isn't big enough to be served by rail. And a relatively short line to a major city at that. Even Scotland has a more extensive rail network than Southern Ontario.
If I had to pick between rail service and extending the 407 to the 115, I'd take rail service any day.
Brian69
Not the Messiah
The problem with Peterborough is that it is more of a retirement community than a commuter's community. A lot of larger businesses have shrunk or moved on since the 80s (GE is a shadow of its former self, Quaker Oats, Outboard Marine, etc.) and the retirement complexes moved in. The joke in town used to be that Peterborough had the highest average age in the nation (it was popular with Stats-Can) and I don't think that was far off. And that was before the jobs began disappearing.
Other than a hard core contingent of commuters I just don't see it offering enough other than convenience for people who want to do a day trip to the GTA.
Other than a hard core contingent of commuters I just don't see it offering enough other than convenience for people who want to do a day trip to the GTA.
MisterF
Senior Member
That joke is one of those urban legends that never seems to die. Like Yonge St being the longest street in the world. Repeat it enough times and people will think it's true. Peterborough is growing, GE and Quaker are both stable, there's still a strong manufacturing sector, and Trent and Fleming aren't going anywhere. For a midsize Ontario city Peterborough's median age of 41.7 isn't far off average. In Kingston it's 40.0, St. Catharines is 41.7, North Bay is 40.8, and Sarnia is 43.2. All those cities have rail service. It's mainly the bigger cities that are significantly younger.
Better yet, compare it to Cobourg, a small town with an ancient median age of 46.1. And it has one of the busiest VIA stations east of Toronto.
nfitz
Superstar
120,000 - ah your looking at the CMA. And indeed it seems to be the 33rd largest CMA in Canada. Let's see what else is on that list ... number 35 is Cape Breton. The city of Cape Breton - no the entire island.
Not sure CMA is the right way to be counting the size of the town.
You can use another criteria - how many people used the train before it got cancelled. Virtually no one.
Not saying that one day it won't make sense. But surely serving the GTA is priority.
CDL.TO
Moderator
But Cape Breton isn't a CMA. There are only 33 CMAs in Canada, of which Peterborough is the smallest. They're not comparable.
The City of Peterborough is relatively small in area. It's 58 square km, while in comparison Mississauga is 288 square km. Looking at the boundaries, I don't think that saying Peterborugh and its exurbs is home to over 100,000 people is unreasonable.
adma
Superstar
More doubt than in the States?
Brian69
Not the Messiah
Well, Peterborough (or the Kawarthas) might be growing but student enrollment is shrinking, something that led to my change of address a couple years back. Kawartha Lakes (Lindsay) almost has the same numbers as Peterborough as well as similar growth patterns and it hardly gets a thought let alone talk of a rail line.
Cobourg's selling point is it's location along the rail route that it shares with much larger parts of the GTA and Eastern Ontario (Kingston, Bellville etc.). It isn't necessary to be a draw because the larger line is already there. You just had to add a station. Peterborough is more out of the way and the state of much of the rail line now is quite bad so it takes more effort and cost to make it happen. Peterborough might have a little size but it has an awkward location. If it ends up getting a link that would be great, but I won't be surprised if this plan fades away in the next year or so.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Not comparable. The "City" of Kawartha Lakes covers over twice the area of the entire Peterborough CMA. Lindsay itself has a population around 17,000 compared to Peterborough's 75,000.
ShonTron
Moderator
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The "City" of Kawartha Lakes (like SkyDome, I still refer to it as what it should be known, Victoria County) would be served just fine with a VIA train to Peterborough with a bus connection to Lindsay at Pontypool, with perhaps regular service along Highway 35 north for Fenlon Falls, Coboconk and Minden/Haliburton (there is a semi-regular bus now). Peterborough is indeed viable. I'd even go as far and suggest two round trips a day - one geared to commuters, another geared to students/seniors/travellers, i.e. morning out of Toronto, early evening into Toronto. VIA should run it - this is no place for a 10-car GO Train with relatively uncomfortable seats and no on-board service.
Though these days, I wouldn't be in absolute shock if the province or feds decide to re-lay track from Uxbridge to Lindsay for a gimmie there.
Though these days, I wouldn't be in absolute shock if the province or feds decide to re-lay track from Uxbridge to Lindsay for a gimmie there.
MisterF
Senior Member
The old service and the proposed service aren't comparable. The tracks are proposed to be totally rebuilt for higher speed service similar to VIA mainline service. It'll be comparable with driving if not faster, while the old service was much slower and rougher.
Enrollment at Trent is lower this year but it's higher than it was when the previous service was cut. Trent and Fleming have well over 12,000 full time students and another 10,000+ part time. Greyhound runs a lot of buses to Peterborough partly because of the students.
You missed the point. That doesn't explain why Cobourg has one of the busiest VIA stations east of Toronto, busier than your example of Belleville. 6 trains stop here every weekday. Peterborough is a similar distance with a much larger population. It can easily support 2 daily trains.
Brian69
Not the Messiah
I stand corrected. I thought that was high for Lindsay but figured the area around it was denser.
When I mentioned enrollment I was actually referring to the school board, where enrollment went down by about 500 two years ago and I imagine the trend isn't changing--significant numbers in a place like the Kawarthas and not helpful in getting that average age down.
As far as the other point goes, I wasn't arguing that Peterborough was less suited to support a couple trains a day compared with Cobourg based on age or any other criteria. I'm simply saying a $150 million investment for a couple of trains a day just to Peterborough is very difficult to justify in any situation, especially now.
MisterF
Senior Member
This is a trend across the whole Western world. Enrollment is decreasing all over. People are having fewer children and the population is aging. This has nothing to do with the viability of passenger rail - countries with lower birth rates have much more extensive rail systems.
And I wasn't arguing the opposite. The only reason I brought up Cobourg was to counter your assertion that passenger rail isn't viable for cities with aging populations.
Almost every developed country in the world would consider it very easy to justify. Canada is one of the few countries where a city comparable to Peterborough (size, distance to a major urban centre) doesn't have multiple trains per day without a second thought. Again, look at Scotland as an example. Cities comparable to Peterborough like Inverness and Aberdeen have rail service, and they're not on main lines going to bigger cities. Not only that, but passenger rail serves a lot of small, out of the way towns in the north and west. If our rail system were comparable to Scotland's, not only would Peterborough have service, but so would Pembroke, Lindsay, Orillia, and Owen Sound. And the UK isn't exactly known for the quality of its rail system.
AnarchoSocialist
Active Member
MisterF has it spot on. Political foolishness aside Peterborough should have a rail connection. Depending on the alignment this would also benefit communities along the way so this is something that would not just benefit Peterborough. If there are any positives to come from a Conservative win it is that this means this project might just go ahead. And I think once that happen, and once it opens and proves itself to be successful, this will only benefit other similar services in and around the GTA (or even a city such as Ottawa and its environs).
On another note, this would also be a good chance for them to upgrade to somewhat faster, more modern equipment as well. Though electrification would be desirable, under real world conditions I think some modern DMU's would be perfect for this route.
On another note, this would also be a good chance for them to upgrade to somewhat faster, more modern equipment as well. Though electrification would be desirable, under real world conditions I think some modern DMU's would be perfect for this route.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I completely agree with AS and Mister F. This is a project that's long overdue and with track improvements that should be emulated elsewhere. I just hope it's VIA and not GO.