News   May 03, 2024
 1K     1 
News   May 03, 2024
 652     0 
News   May 03, 2024
 305     0 

Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editoria

A

afransen TO

Guest
Paying down debt a dreary goal


LINDA MCQUAIG

Deep in the bowels of the Finance Department in Ottawa, there are probably some shut-ins who already have the date marked off on their calendars.

But most of us aren't that eagerly anticipating the year 2012. That's when, if Ottawa stays the fiscal course, our debt-to-GDP ratio (the size of our debt compared with the size of our economy) will drop as low as 25 per cent. Oh baby.

As a guiding national goal, I find this uninspiring. Compared with other national goals — wiping out child poverty, creating our own airplane or ridding the world of land mines — achieving a 25 per cent debt-to-GDP ratio is, well, hardly the sort of thing that sends shivers up the spine.

But get used to it because this is the kind of national goal that sends shivers up the spines of those involved in the new Paul Martin government, poised to start running the country later this week.

In fact, while Martin's talk of the "politics of achievement" conjures up a thrilling sense of national purpose, in practice the kinds of achievements that are really on Martin's mind — and on the minds of those who financed his recent leadership campaign — are balanced budgets and falling debt-to-GDP ratios.

So hold onto your seats. We're heading fast-forward into what promises to be the golden age of accounting. All this may sound harmless, if a little dull. But don't let the dullness fool you. It's both dull and dangerous.

In fact, what's really at stake is whether we'll rebuild the social programs and public infrastructure that have been effectively gutted through two decades of underfunding.

Let's first state one thing clearly: As a country, we definitely have the resources to do this rebuilding, although you'd never know it from the public debate.

Ottawa has been running surpluses for the past six years, and those surpluses are projected to get bigger and bigger over time. A study by the Conference Board of Canada last year estimated that, if the present course were maintained, the annual federal surpluses would rise by the year 2020 to an amazing $85 billion a year. "There's no reason to believe that's far off the mark," David Perry, senior researcher at the Canadian Tax Foundation, said in an interview last month.

So, hold the sackcloth and hair shirts. Good-bye, austerity.

Actually, not so fast. The problem is that the business leaders who back Martin have other plans for the money — tax cuts and debt reduction — and are dead set against restoring the level of public programs we enjoyed in the past. So the Martin team has been trying to dampen expectations, suggesting the cupboard is bare, even though the cupboard promises to be so well stocked that the real problem will be getting the cupboard door shut.

Martin is trying to get us to focus on the goal of reducing the debt-to-GDP ratio to 25 per cent.

But there's little reason to do so. Our debt-to-GDP ratio is already the second lowest among G-7 countries. And it will keep declining on its own, as long as our economy keeps growing and we don't add any new debt.

This is what happened when we were left with a huge debt after World War II. We focused on economic growth. The economy grew. The debt stayed the same. Eventually, the debt became a tiny burden compared with the huge new economy. (In other words, we had a low debt-to-GDP ratio.)

But Martin and his backers aren't content to let today's debt-to-GDP ratio shrink like that over time through economic growth. They want to speed up the process by also making actual payments — a minimum of $3 billion a year — to reduce the debt.

This is a bit like making extra payments to pay off your mortgage faster, even though you need the money to repair the leaking roof and make sure everyone in the family has a winter coat.

In a study for the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, economist Jim Stanford notes that economic growth accounted almost entirely for the drop in our debt-to-GDP from 70 to 44 per cent in recent years. Yet Ottawa, with Martin as finance minister, insisted on putting at least $3 billion a year toward debt reduction.

Paying down debt a dreary goal Stanford notes that if we put that $3 billion each year instead toward social programs, we'd still reach the 25 per cent debt-to-GDP level. We'd just have to wait a year longer — to 2013. That's right. We'd have to put off our national dream of 25 per cent debt-to-GDP ratio a whole extra year.

Hands up those willing to wait.


----------------------------------------------------


This is remarkable. I can't believe that Martin could be so driven by what I would call stupid ideological beliefs. If we invested that $3 billion in increasing GDP growth by an extra 1.5% per annum, we'd "pay off" the debt far faster than actually applying it to the debt. I have always argued that repaying the debt would be moronic.

Hell, I would even argue that once our debt does reach 25% of GDP, it would make sense to borrow money for infrastructure such that our debt:GDP ratio remains the same. If the economy grows at 4% that would mean there would be $22 billion in new infrastructure funds available every year. Can you say hello to the TTC of your dreams? Can you say hello to a health care system with the facilities and equipment it needs? Can you say hello to heavy investment in our universities? That's a mind-boggling sum.

And when you spend money on infrastructure, you typically receive approximately 30% back in tax revenue....
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

>Martin is trying to get us to focus on the goal of
>reducing the debt-to-GDP ratio to 25 per cent.
>But there's little reason to do so. Our debt-to-GDP
>ratio is already the second lowest among G-7 countries.

Incorrect, our public debt levels are nearer to the
"basket case" G7 economy's. You cannot take just the federal
debt levels into account since unlike other countries
our provinces are independantly allowed to run up debt.
The world really looks at the total debt, not just
federal debt.... federal debt is just an internal number
used by the federal government since it is the only thing
that it control.

The true Debt-to-GDP ratio is:
Great Britian 50.00%
United States 60.25%
Germany 61.30%
France 66.10%
Canada 81.20%
Italy 106.67% (Commonly referred to as a
basket case)
Japan 145.90% (Spiralling out of control
up from 132.78 the year
before)

>And it will keep declining on its own, as long as our
>economy keeps growing and we don't add any new debt.

It is only able to decline on-its-own because our
government has become more fiscally responsible and
not allowing the deficit to be out of control.
We were very close to having to call in the IMF, and you
know when you do that the country is screwed.

The "National" government should restrict itself to
projects that are of "national concern". Projects
that are entirely in one province should be funded by
that provinces residents. By doing the taxing at one
level of government, and the spending at the other level
you distance the tax collection from the spending. More
often than not that leads to careless spending. (I love
spending someone elses money). The tax money comes
from the same place anyway. By reducing the federal tax
levels this has the same effect of transfering that
taxation powers to the provinces since they are able to
raise taxes without raising the overall burden on the lowly
taxpayer.

I prefer being really conservative on estimates and then
if things work out ok, then applying it to the debt.
Things can change in a short period..... (a.k.a SARS,
Mad Cow, etc.) and by not being conservative -- you
have no room for emergencies.

Yes, increasing GDP also reduces it (maybe to a greater
extent), but by reducing the debt payments by reducing
the debt load, that "savings" can be used for program
spending (without raising taxes). Tax reductions have
a direct effect on GDP because that money gets put back
into the economy. Currently 25 billion dollars is
required just to service the existing debt. If we did
not run up that debt (starting in the Trudeau era), we
would not require the tax income from the GST (and the
Liberals would be able to finally keep that promise).

Yes, infrastructure has suffered.... but blame those
that put us in that situation to begin with.... by
increasing the debt load..... like Finance Minister
Chretien, and PM Trudeau.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

And the Conservatives... including Mulroney.

Actually repaying the debt makes very little sense. Yes, the debt takes up $25 billion in potential programme spending or tax cuts, but as the economy grows, so too do federal revenues. So, without increasing taxes, federal revenues have increased some 50% in the past few years as the size of the federal government relative to GDP has fallen to record lows.

Governments in Canada (well, at least the major ones, the provinces and the feds) have been running balanced budjets for the most part these past few years, and this will likely continue for some time to come, given the current political environment. As such, the only way Canada's debt is increasing is through consumers and corporate borrowing. There isn't much we can do about that beyond rather Draconian measures.

So, if governments don't bother to repay debt and just hold the course with balanced budgets or moderate surplusses, then public debt to GDP will fall, and quite steadily. I don't see any reason to repay it. Infrastructure investment at this point, is a far more important, and effective, way of reducing relative debt loads.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

>And the Conservatives... including Mulroney.

Yes, that government was also included,
but it did not begin there. The only way
that they could do things with respect to
the deficit was to "re-educate" the populate
(which Martin was able to do). The Conservative
government put into place a number of levers that
were useful in helping the deficit in later years.
(a.k.a. the dreaded GST)

>Actually repaying the debt makes very little sense.
>Yes, the debt takes up $25 billion in potential
>programme spending or tax cuts, but as the economy
>grows, so too do federal revenues.

2.5 billion in current revenues are directly related
to the 50 billion in debt that was "paid-down".
That is almost all of the 3 billion that you wish
to use for other purposes.

If the government "targeted" a balanced budget,
they would likely run a deficit. Additionally,
interest payments on current debt will continue
to drop based on demonstrating that the
government is fiscally responsible. Running
a deficit will start the ball rolling again.

They have all the money they need right now....
A billion wasted in the gun registry, when the only
time that you will "catch" someone is when they
are actually committing another crime. A billion
dollars mispent by HRDC. The ad campaign in Quebec
to help friends of the government. The cost of new
government jets when they did not need them, just
to help one of the most politically connected
companies (Bombardier). That is just the tip
of the iceberg. Before they start digging
into the piggy bank, they should target all
that wasteful spending that could be used for
useful projects. Set priorities, kill anything
that is not a "priority".

>As such, the only way Canada's debt is increasing
>is through consumers and corporate borrowing. There
>isn't much we can do about that beyond rather
>Draconian measures.

Consumer debt and corporate borrowing are not
"Canadian" (although Canadians maybe involved
with it). That is just a hit on the banking
sector, which is in pretty good shape.

>So, if governments don't bother to repay debt
>and just hold the course with balanced budgets
>or moderate surplusses, then public debt to
>GDP will fall, and quite steadily. I don't see
>any reason to repay it.

And it won't.... it will be used for "pet" projects",
and tax reduction (which by the way increases GDP).

>Infrastructure investment at this point, is a
>far more important, and effective,
>way of reducing relative debt loads.

Infrastructure that is needed, not just spending
money on the "Trans-Canada" because of it's symbolism.
The congestion at the Detroit/Windsor crossing is a
much more pressing problem for Ontario than the
Trans-Canada is.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

It didn't begin with Mulroney nor did it end. If Mulroney had been willing to make the unpopular decisions, he could have curbed the hemhorrage much sooner, and we'd all be better off right now. There is really no point in issuing blame and pointing fingers at this point...

Does it matter where the three billion come from? It will take us decades to repay the debt, even if we made it one of our foremost goals, nationally. It is a fruitless endeavour. It makes much more sense to invest in the things that will fuel economic growth. Previously 34% of federal revenues were used to service the debt. Now, that figure is in the 20% range (I haven't read recent statististics). The vast majority of this decline stems from growth in the economy (and thus government revenues) and not from our attempts to lower debt. I'd say that debt repayment is only symbolic.... It makes us seem more fiscally responsible.

The Canadian public will not accept deficits. This is why the Ontario Tories desperately tried to cover-up their fiscal mismanagement which lead to this year's $5.5 billion deficit. As soon as knowledge of this became widespread, they were doomed. That's how as poor a leader as McGuinty managed to pull off such a huge victory.

I disagree that targeting a balanced budget leads to deficits by default. It is always prudent to have contingency reserves (as several governments in Canada do have), and to aim for a slight surplus (it is ridiculous to perfectly balance the budget anyway). I am saying that the debt situation in Canada will be fine as long as we maintain fiscal prudence when it comes to the budget.

And by the way, I totally agree that reducing waste should be a top priority. The gun registry is appalling. Another hideous waste is the helicopter procurement saga. Martin has said that reduction of government waste will be a priority for him, and I have no reason to doubt that he will pursue this objective.

To sum up: don't add to the debt, and the debt will shrink quickly enough without the need for repayments in the only way that matters: its size relative to GDP. Maybe if we had a $84 billion surplus reducing the debt would be worthwhile, as it could be eliminated in less than 7 years. At $3 billion per year, it will take nearly 200 years.

As far as infrastructure goes, there are no worthwhile, "nationwide" infrastructure projects. However, if the feds were to hand the money over to the provinces, it would simply disappear into their general revenues and find its way into the health care budget. Waste is a possibility, but no more so than with province-level infrastructure grants such as SuperBuild. As long as the board that decides who gets how much isn't political, I don't see much of a problem in federal infrastructure grants.

Look at the USA, a huge amount of infrastructure funds comes from the federal government. The same could be said of many other countries.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

>It didn't begin with Mulroney nor did it end. If Mulroney had
>been willing to make the unpopular decisions, he could have
>curbed the hemhorrage much sooner, and we'd all be better
>off right now. There is really no point in issuing blame and >pointing fingers at this point...

Unpopulare decisions? The GST revenue growth was a significant part of the balancing of the budget.

>The Canadian public will not accept deficits. This is why the
>Ontario Tories desperately tried to cover-up their fiscal
>mismanagement which lead to this year's $5.5 billion
>deficit. As soon as knowledge of this became widespread,
>they were doomed. That's how as poor a leader as McGuinty
>managed to pull off such a huge victory.

The Ontario Tories inherited a 10 billion dollar deficit, brought it down to around zero.... but after Eves became leader (instead of someone conservative), and was in the middle of an election.... he screwed things up..... But the 5.5 billion dollar deficit is not 100% his fault, he had to deal with the effects of SARS on the economy.... but if he were truely conservative he would have had more of a buffer.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

Trudeau accumulated a $150 billion debt and Mulroney brought it to $500 billion... after the 7% GST too. I judge Mulroney more harshly.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

GST was a drop in the bucket. Mulroney had the ability to do what Martin did a scant few years later, but found it politically expendient to continue borrowing tens of billions.

You're blaming Eves? He was Harris' right hand man during the height of the Common Sense Revolution. That is a bullshit explanation...

Harris inherited a $10 billion deficit, but did little to correct it. Slashing government revenue in fact, served to make it worth. Some 90% of Ontario's economic growth under Harris stemmed from spillover from the USA, and not any specific economic policies. So, the deficit would have taken care of itself.

Also, the reason for the deficit we are facing now is simply more of the same of the CSR: tax cuts for tax cuts' sake and privatisation for privatisation's sake. Eves is every drop of the neoconservative Harris was, and being neoconservative has nothing to do with fiscal prudence.

I'd say that the federal Liberals were more (traditional) "conservative" than Harris and his PC Party cohorts were. Bill Davis was a real leader, Harris was a opportunistic fool.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

I've always though paying off the debt is very worthwhile. But I don't think debt payment and infrastucture and social spending expansion are mutually exclusive.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

Not mutually exclusive? Are you familiar with the concept of opportunity cost? Every dollar you spend on something is a dollar you can't spend on something else. So, given limited budget constraints, the proper thing to do (in fact, the logical thing to do) would be to allocate spending in a way that maximizes the aggregate benefit you get from that expenditure. Its something that applies to individuals and governments both.

Every dollar we spend on debt repayment is a dollar less spent on infrastructure. And think, we technically are repaying our debt, even without spending a dime, in real terms. Our debt has been nearly cut in half* in the last decade, and we can nearly do that again in another decade, all without paying back a dime in principle.

*well, we have spent more than a couple dimes in debt reduction in the last ten years, but that only accounted for a small proportion of the real decrease in federal debt.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

Actually a dollar paid back is worth 1$ + 4.5-5% compounded each future year. Infrastructure.... depends on which infrastructure -- a lot of government programs are not that targetted so it ends up just being an expense, with only some of it helping business (and thus adds to the GDP) [although we need more US crossings at the Ontario/Windsor area border]. Tax cuts help the GDP..... Debt relief now reduces future tax burdens and increases our competativeness against the United States. If you "hold" the current tax rate, and run a surplus now, then when the next recession hits, you have room to cut taxes and add stimulus to the economy when it needs it without adding to the debt. Recessions hurt the debt/gdp because it makes the GDP go down.... anyways just saying that it is not a zero sum game, it is a complex forumula.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

"1$ + 4.5-5%"

Its really worth perhaps 1 + 2% real interest.

We need infrastructure. I'm not saying we should spend like drunken sailors, but personally, direct debt repayment is pretty far down the list in terms of importance. In the face of a rather rapidly growing tax base, there are better uses for our limited government revenues than debt reduction.

If government revenues increase by 2 to 4% per year, think of it as "repaying" a similar proportion of the debt. Increasing that rate to 2.5 to 4.5% at the cost of needed infrastructure isn't logical.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

To come up with the percentage number.... I took the total debt (just over 500 billion) and the interest payments (somewhere between 23 and 25 billion if I remember right) and it came out to between 4.5 - 5%. A lot of debt, a lot of different interest rates... the first debt to repay should probably be external debt etc. Government revenues depend on GDP, GDP is affected by tax rates, interest rates are affected by debt level -- no simple formula. Again, throw a lot of money at "infrastructure" without targetting it and you end up with waste.... only so much can be absorbed in the first year.... there are only so many construction workers available without "distorting" the construction industry market-place (either by driving up rates, or increasing the construction labour pool beyond that that is sustainable over the long term). I would only target infrastructure that makes Canada economy run better (Detroit/Windsor crossing). You keep on saying "invest it in Infrastructure", but you have yet to say what infrastructure. Pearson does not need any more money invested, it already has a commitment of 4.2 billion dollars.
 
Re: Paying down debt a dreary goal-Star Editorial-Worth Read

We're not really disagreeing...

By infrastructure I mean border crossings as well as other improvements, mainly in terms of transportation, but also in terms of increasing quality of life.

Take the GTA as an example. Toronto needs billions upon billions in new transit infrastructure. This is of critical economic importance because transit is vitally important to curbing sprawl, and sprawl does and will continue to cost tens of billions. Also, by allowing many of the drivers currently on the road an alternative to driving, we can clear our highways, allowing for quick and efficient delivery of goods.

Beyond transportation, there is also issues of quality of life. Quality of life considerations are critical to attracting young professionals. Toronto's derelict Portlands are an area that could be used to significantly increase Toronto's quality of life by making many new amenities available in a very accessible place. Other potential amenities are new or improved cultural institutions, beautification of public space, and other institutions (libraries, hospitals, schools, universities, etc.). These former are not only important to attracting tourism, but also migrants to the city, especially in the important so-called "creative" class. These people can choose to live virtually in any city, and still perform their work. We need to attract and retain them by offering a high quality of life at a reasonable cost.

The same goes for social programmes. Education (especially post-secondary) and proper health care are areas we should focus on, in addition to measures that will help stimulate productivity growth, and excellences (depth as well as bredth in economic sectors) in various areas of industrial and commercial activity. Canada has a lot at stake, and we can't just sit on our hands.

If, for instance, we did have a considerable government surplus after we have made appropriate investments in infrastructure and social spending, I would argue that there is greater benefit in reducing taxation than in reducing debt. The interest burden is more than sufficient for our present day economy without burdening it further by repaying the debt accrued by the wasteful spending of the last 30 years.

I'm not saying that if there is an unexpected surplus of a few billion we should cut taxes. I agree that it is logical to budget on a worse (not worst) case scenario, leaving wiggle room for targeted government intervention and using unutilised surpluses for debt reduction. I am arguing that it isn't sound economic policy to run $20 billion surpluses as we have more than once under this Liberal regime and apply most if not all of it to debt reduction. There are other, more pressing needs in this country.


PS. Re: percentage cost of debt, the real rate of interest is the "accounting" rate of interest (ie, the 4.5 to 5%) subtracted by the rate of inflation (which is generally in the 1.5 to 4.5% range). If there is 4.5% inflation, then a bond which is earning 4.5% interest has the same "real" value now as it does in one year.
 

Back
Top