Parliament Streetcar

[dowlingm]

I took the 65 myself on Saturday from Dundas/Parliament. I think for some points along Parliament the choice is "whichever comes first - 504/505 or 65", at least for eastbound travel.

I don't think historical numbers help completely because of the significant population bump occurring at Regent Park, and due to happen on Queens Quay East, and to some extent in between. However, it's understandable to an extent that Sherbourne was extended first and thus got the "George Brown bump" especially since the Queens Quay East-Parliament intersection is likely to be reworked.

It is 700m from Parliament/King to Queens Quay. If streetcar track/overhead could be successfully run to the planned loop, then the following would result:

• Turnback option for routes north of King St.
• Turnback option for 503/504/514 westbound to southbound if the curve was added when the north-south track was added - eastbound angle likely too acute (see Sumach-Cherry debacle)
• Non-revenue cars can enter/leave service on QQE, if convenient, when LRT built

The issues as I see it for a "Parliament car" are:

• Parliament has a lot of non revenue activity and a Queens Quay loop won't solve all of it.
• Even with nearby development on Queens Quay, Sherbourne will continue to be more convenient to most ridership unless the Parliament car can run along the waterfront and not just to it
• No reasonable access to Castle Frank without massive capital expenditure, and a narrow route all the way up Parliament to said terminal, plus sensitivities about any impact on the cemetery or properties north of Bloor.

Without a northern subway destination, or St James Town ridership, it's difficult to see this being viable. Even a "514" type branch of an east west route seems like a solution in search of a problem.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I think the real problem is that there's serious discrimination against adding more mixed traffic streetcar routes. This needs to change.

Is it because they're deemed not successful vs. ROW routes?

Yah, not successful for the 64,000 daily rider King Streetcar, and other high-ridership streetcar lines.

Mixed-traffic is more than adequate for what ridership Parliament can demand. The route is mixed-traffic today actually, buses are mixed-traffic transit service.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Mixed-traffic is more than adequate for what ridership Parliament can demand. The route is mixed-traffic today actually, buses are mixed-traffic transit service.

Sounds like the existing bus is the ideal option then.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Sounds like the existing bus is the ideal option then.

We could increase frequency as a pilot project to see if ridership numbers change significantly, because I do agree with the premise of this thread that the Parliament route is not being optimized for ridership expansion and transit service accessibility (a social benefit).

There is also a reasonable question on whether streetcars would save on operating costs (do they? I have no idea actually. Would like it if someone can fill me in on that) and whether changing frequency, vehicle mode, and route alignment can do interesting things to ridership.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Parliament also has the issue of hindered flow.

Over 3 km from Lakeshore to Castlefrank Stn. up Parliament you must pass thirteen traffic lights:

Mill St.
Front St.
King St.
Adelaide St.
Richmond St.
Queen St.
Shuter St.
Dundas St.
Gerrard St.
Carlton St.
Winchester St.
Wellesley St.
Bloor St.

In my decades plus experience driving this route I have to believe that the traffic lights, especially those from Lakeshore to Richmond are intentionally timed to catch you on the red.

Then you got the dozens of taxis battling for space from Shuter to Dundas, blocking much of the road.

 

[DSC]

We could increase frequency as a pilot project to see if ridership numbers change significantly, because I do agree with the premise of this thread that the Parliament route is not being optimized for ridership expansion and transit service accessibility (a social benefit).

There is also a reasonable question on whether streetcars would save on operating costs (do they? I have no idea actually. Would like it if someone can fill me in on that) and whether changing frequency, vehicle mode, and route alignment can do interesting things to ridership.

For a commenter on transit issues you seem to lack some basic knowledge such as operating costs (and whether a streetcar is cheaper to operate; on a per passenger basis it is - IF THE VEHICLE IS FULL - as streetcars hold far more people. Of course, they also cost more than a bus.) You might want to look at many of the analyses and comments on Steve Munro's site ( https://stevemunro.ca/ ) or read some of the route histories etc on Transit Toronto ( http://transit.toronto.on.ca/ ) The TTC has already said that they may extend the Parliament bus to Queen's Quay and there was lots of discussion - here and elsewhere - when the Cherry Street streetcar was under study about why extending the Parliament streetcar route was not going to do much for improving transit (creating a streetcar link at Castle Frank is virtually impossible and adding streetcars to the cars using the existing Parliament/rail berm bridge so it could link to the planned Queen's Quay LRT, would cause many problems so a new bridge is really necessary - but no space.).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

For a commenter on transit issues you seem to lack some basic knowledge such as operating costs

Amateur commentator*

I think I have a pretty good understanding of good transit design from utility, user and network perspective, but I do lack knowledge on technical information which is why I ask a lot of questions. (Especially if it comes from engineering matters, I'm woefully uneducated on that stuff.)

(and whether a streetcar is cheaper to operate; on a per passenger basis it is - IF THE VEHICLE IS FULL - as streetcars hold far more people. Of course, they also cost more than a bus.)

That makes a lot of sense. I had suspected that if there were any operation savings to be had, it would not make up for capital cost anyway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

For a commenter on transit issues you seem to lack some basic knowledge such as operating costs (and whether a streetcar is cheaper to operate; on a per passenger basis it is - IF THE VEHICLE IS FULL - as streetcars hold far more people. Of course, they also cost more than a bus.) You might want to look at many of the analyses and comments on Steve Munro's site ( https://stevemunro.ca/ ) or read some of the route histories etc on Transit Toronto ( http://transit.toronto.on.ca/ ) The TTC has already said that they may extend the Parliament bus to Queen's Quay and there was lots of discussion - here and elsewhere - when the Cherry Street streetcar was under study about why extending the Parliament streetcar route was not going to do much for improving transit (creating a streetcar link at Castle Frank is virtually impossible and adding streetcars to the cars using the existing Parliament/rail berm bridge so it could link to the planned Queen's Quay LRT, would cause many problems so a new bridge is really necessary - but no space.).

Ok, let's be fair here, I started this because we didn't know. Now I do. Wisla and I are just tyring to find out why exactly there is no north south streetcar east of Yonge.

Amateur commentator*

I think I have a pretty good understanding of good transit design from utility, user and network perspective, but I do lack knowledge on technical information which is why I ask a lot of questions. (Especially if it comes from engineering matters, I'm woefully uneducated on that stuff.)



That makes a lot of sense. I had suspected that if there were any operation savings to be had, it would not make up for capital cost anyway.

Agreed.

 

[DSC]

Ok, let's be fair here, I started this because we didn't know. Now I do. Wisla and I are just tyring to find out why exactly there is no north south streetcar east of Yonge.

Agreed.

I was not trying to be unfair, my point was that there are several very user friendly sites that help explain transit and if one is interested in transit, as we all obviously are, it would be Good to do some reading up.

 

[Avenue]

Unless there's political leadership and will to build something that has proper right of way and station locations only at main intersections, I don't think it's an investment worth throwing money at.

You have to make an upgrade over the bus to justify it to the people.

 

[W. K. Lis]

With the TTC being so very underfunded, there would be little chance of a Parliament streetcar. They keep cutting funds needed for streetcar track switches upgrades, for example.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Wisla and I are just tyring to find out why exactly there is no north south streetcar east of Yonge.

I know what you mean, straight up and down, waterfront to subway, but the 504 and 505 spend much of their time north-south, while the 506 is north-east, south-west for much of its route. For example, you can can take the streetcar straight north from Queen St to Broadview Station.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I was not trying to be unfair, my point was that there are several very user friendly sites that help explain transit and if one is interested in transit, as we all obviously are, it would be Good to do some reading up.

Fair enough, thanks for the info.

I know what you mean, straight up and down, waterfront to subway, but the 504 and 505 spend much of their time north-south, while the 506 is north-east, south-west for much of its route. For example, you can can take the streetcar straight north from Queen St to Broadview Station.

...

Great map, and interesting.

Broadview has more coverage then Parliament. No wonder Broadview and Queen is a huge hotspot now.

 

[44 North]

Parliament also has the issue of hindered flow.

Over 3 km from Lakeshore to Castlefrank Stn. up Parliament you must pass thirteen traffic lights:

Mill St.
Front St.
King St.
Adelaide St.
Richmond St.
Queen St.
Shuter St.
Dundas St.
Gerrard St.
Carlton St.
Winchester St.
Wellesley St.
Bloor St.

In my decades plus experience driving this route I have to believe that the traffic lights, especially those from Lakeshore to Richmond are intentionally timed to catch you on the red.

Then you got the dozens of taxis battling for space from Shuter to Dundas, blocking much of the road.

This is correct, at least for me as well. It's virtually guaranteed that any light you approach will turn red. I can get from Parliament/Lake Shore to Browns Line in the same amount of time it takes to get from Parliament/Wellesley to Lake Shore. I drive according to the colour of two or three traffic lights ahead, so I generally stay in the right lane and coast as slow as possible without making a full stop...no point racing to a red. Though I've noticed in the last year or so it seems to be improving.

Bringing a N/S streetcar service is definitely interesting. I wouldn't support it as an "LRT", or any futile attempt to relieve Yonge, or a costly whathaveyou (e.g using portals to access the substructure of the Rosedale Bridge). But I think it'd be a good idea for a gradual expansion of the legacy network. We already have a good chunk of the tracks in place, which come in handy when any line needs additional cars. This would mostly be filling in the blanks.

Something similar was considered in the mid 80s, mostly as an attempt to relieve Yonge. I guess was to be like Spadina where it's mostly right-in/right-out for side streets. Don't agree with that. But a simple mixed-traffic solution would be okay imo.

 

[gweed123]

My preference would be to install a streetcar service along Parliament from Castle Frank to King, and then have it cut westward along King, and then up Spadina to Spadina Station. Basically, you'd be forming a slightly wider and shallower U compared to the YUS U. With a hopeful King Transit Mall, it would mean 2 of the 3 legs of the route would be some form of ROW.

The current issue with the Parliament bus is that it doesn't really go anywhere where people want to go. Most travel is towards the core, which it doesn't really serve. Having it curve westward into downtown without a transfer would also take a fair bit of traffic off of the Carlton, Dundas, and Queen cars, as well as the Yonge Subway.