Ottawa Transit Developments

[TossYourJacket]

What's the reason for not interlining lines 2 and 4?

The tunnel under Dow's Lake is single tracked. While some parts of the line are being expanded to double tracking as part of this extension, the tunnel is not (due to lack of budget), which means the tunnel is now a huge choke point. As such. it was decided to keep consistent frequencies for the length of line 2, vs having trains show up every 20 minutes or so at either terminus beyond South Keys. It's not an ideal plan, that's for sure, but 2 separate lines means more frequency on both of them compared to interlining.

Ideally, someday the tunnel will be improved to allow for double tracking and electrification, but that's not part of the Stage 2 expansion sadly.

 

[ARG1]

What's the reason for not interlining lines 2 and 4?

Much of Line 2 operates on a single track, a single track that limits headways to 12 minutes. Specifically, the line is single tracked from just north of Carleton through the Dow's Lake tunnel, through the trench north of Carling all the way to Gladstone, and then its also single tracked south of Carleton to just past Walkley where there is a bypass track, and after that bypass track its single tracked all the way until just north of Leitrim. Interlining basically will set the frequencies of the segment south of South Keys to every 24 minutes.

 

[Deadpool X]

If they plan to double track line 2, will it possible to interline with line 4 at a later stage? I am hoping they are provisioning for that.

 

[ARG1]

If they plan to double track line 2, will it possible to interline with line 4 at a later stage? I am hoping they are provisioning for that.

Theoretically yes. The biggest issue is double tracking Line 2. Doing so would need a new bridge constructed on the rideau river (which isn't that bad), but would also need a new tunnel under Dow's Lake (which was too expensive for Ottawa apparently).

 

[robmausser]

If they plan to double track line 2, will it possible to interline with line 4 at a later stage? I am hoping they are provisioning for that.

Yes, they built Line 4 as the same mainline heavy rail type as Line 2 for this reason, it would actually have been cheaper to be a SkyTrain light metro or even an Automated People Mover.

 

[Clinton Desveaux]

Since 2006

I wonder what made Ottawa go crazy on building LRT lines at this pace when they had built barely anything until 2015. What changed suddenly to warrant building multiple lines at the same time like that?

Big population spikes - the population growth patterns is approx 2 years ahead of schedule

 

[asher__jo]

I wonder what made Ottawa go crazy on building LRT lines at this pace when they had built barely anything until 2015. What changed suddenly to warrant building multiple lines at the same time like that?

Population growth, a progressive council and federal $$.

 

[smallspy]

The tunnel under Dow's Lake is single tracked. While some parts of the line are being expanded to double tracking as part of this extension, the tunnel is not (due to lack of budget), which means the tunnel is now a huge choke point. As such. it was decided to keep consistent frequencies for the length of line 2, vs having trains show up every 20 minutes or so at either terminus beyond South Keys. It's not an ideal plan, that's for sure, but 2 separate lines means more frequency on both of them compared to interlining.

In fairness, it's not just the tunnel - the single-tracked section over the river and through Mooney's Bay is also an equal restriction. Getting rid of one will not allow a vast improvement over the whole of the line due to the other. Both will need to be removed, although the improvements to be made during the Phase 2 construction will still help immensely.

Yes, they built Line 4 as the same mainline heavy rail type as Line 2 for this reason, it would actually have been cheaper to be a SkyTrain light metro or even an Automated People Mover.

You're right, but they also made the decision to operate the line separately fairly late in the whole process. By that point it was too late.

Dan

 

[gweed123]

In fairness, it's not just the tunnel - the single-tracked section over the river and through Mooney's Bay is also an equal restriction. Getting rid of one will not allow a vast improvement over the whole of the line due to the other. Both will need to be removed, although the improvements to be made during the Phase 2 construction will still help immensely.

You're right, but they also made the decision to operate the line separately fairly late in the whole process. By that point it was too late.

Dan

I think the name of the game for Line 2 is "incremental improvements". Yes, the changes currently being undertaken are by far the biggest since the line opened in 2001, but they have also added more sidings over the course of the line's history (I believe 2015ish? But don't quote me on that). It's quite interesting seeing two completely different approaches being taken with Line 1 vs Line 2. Line 1 was "built it out big right away", and Line 2 is the exact opposite.

If there are transit-friendly Provincial and/or Federal governments in place when Ottawa goes for Stage 3 funding, I could see a new Dow's Lake tunnel and/or a new Rideau River bridge being part of that package, or maybe as a Phase 3B or something (to be started when the Confederation Line Phase 3 projects are completed). Like you and others mentioned, that would theoretically allow for interlining of Lines 2 and 4, with the frequency from South Keys northward being double that of the south end of Line 2.

 

[jayme2016]

Bank St subway is such a hilariously Ottawa pipedream. Multi-billion dollar subway, for a corridor that at its furthest point is 2 km from a heavy rail transit corridor. And that's before we get to the fact that Bank St. runs through some of the wealthiest neighbourhoods in Ottawa, who would all be extremely opposed to the kind of densification necessary to justify a subway line.

Heck, these folks don't even ride the bus enough today. Your average suburban avenue in the 416 has higher bus frequency and fuller buses than Bank St ever will. Meanwhile all these same proponents will ignore corridors like Rideau-Montreal which actually has ridership, development potential and far less NIMBYism. All because of some weird Ottawa envy of the Yonge line.

Nobody at Queen's Park will ever fund this literal pipedream. But the real risk of the Bank St subway fixation is that a lot of other transit issues in Ottawa get ignored. One would think they'd focus on their ridiculously infrequent (for a major city) bus service before fixating on a subway for the rich. But hey it's Ottawa....

As with Bank they need to do something and a lrt tunnel could be the cheapest route to go.

 

[jayme2016]

I think there have been long-term plans for a transportation corridor connecting to the General Hospital and then south connecting to Conroy Rd. I think it's more likely to turn into a transit corridor in the future. Between upgrading the SE Transitway to rail and building rail in the hospital corridor, my money is the hospital corridor.

There expected to start construction on the new mega hospital in 2024 i think any transit link etc will be well into the mid 2030's.

 

[jayme2016]

As with Bank there are choices

Widen Bank plus new bridge
This would not be cheap and would not play well as they want to reduce traffic in this area

Massive parking garage
They could build a massive parking garage again would not be cheap or play well

Lrt tunnel
It would cost billions but it would be the easiest to get funding for and would play really well in the public eye.

 

[OCCheetos]

There expected to start construction on the new mega hospital in 2024 i think any transit link etc will be well into the mid 2030's.

The new hospital will be located at Dow's Lake. I don't think it has anything to do with the general hospital, or that transportation corridor.

 

[jayme2016]

The new hospital will be located at Dow's Lake. I don't think it has anything to do with the general hospital, or that transportation corridor.

But with no hos[ital there would there be much point having transit?

 

[tmlittle]

I think the name of the game for Line 2 is "incremental improvements". Yes, the changes currently being undertaken are by far the biggest since the line opened in 2001, but they have also added more sidings over the course of the line's history (I believe 2015ish? But don't quote me on that). It's quite interesting seeing two completely different approaches being taken with Line 1 vs Line 2. Line 1 was "built it out big right away", and Line 2 is the exact opposite.

If there are transit-friendly Provincial and/or Federal governments in place when Ottawa goes for Stage 3 funding, I could see a new Dow's Lake tunnel and/or a new Rideau River bridge being part of that package, or maybe as a Phase 3B or something (to be started when the Confederation Line Phase 3 projects are completed). Like you and others mentioned, that would theoretically allow for interlining of Lines 2 and 4, with the frequency from South Keys northward being double that of the south end of Line 2.

I think this is a good point, and as well we should consider how much the "group everything together into a megaproject that can be given a name" has become the name of the game with infrastructure politics in Ontario. Politicians love opening stations and new lines, after all. It's obviously a bad idea to launch before service is reasonably functional, but the best political base for improvements to a line is having groups of people riding on it. If someone is a daily commuter on line 2 who hears "we need $50 million for physical infrastructure to improve frequency", they're more likely to have a lightbulb moment than if the line is more of a theoretical concept being sold to them. In my mind that makes line 2 a really interesting model -- how much stuff opens single-tracked with passing places nowadays?