Kyle Campbell
Active Member
They may yet introduce a new line number in stage 2. That won't be decided for some time, and they did reserve the numbers 3 and 4 for future use with phase 1.
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Ottawa Transit Developments
- Thread starter Reecemartin
- Start date
They may yet introduce a new line number in stage 2. That won't be decided for some time, and they did reserve the numbers 3 and 4 for future use with phase 1.
OCCheetos
Active Member
There's a crossover to the East of Hurdman (between Hurdman and Tremblay). It's not a diamond crossover though.
They're only expediting two of the trains apparently (one of which may already be assembled?). Those concerns aren't official by any means.
This is true. Hopefully the current scheme of showing both the west and southwest extensions as red is just for project marketing purposes. I wonder if the Airport Spur ultimately winds up becoming Line 4.
That's unfortunate. It basically ensures the closest in-service short-turn location is the current end-of-line at Blair.
Kyle Campbell
Active Member
There was a space reserved for a pocket track past Hurdman, but they never actually installed it. Instead there's one on the plans just past Blair. I think that's where trains will short turn.
smallspy
Senior Member
With the extension of the line eastward in Phase 2, there were plans to install a third/pocket track to allow turnbacks immediately east of Blair. Ridership is expected to taper off east of there (it currently does so at St Laurent), so they would turn back every second train at rush hours. As well, the preliminary designs for the station at Trim were for a more traditional double-crossover, which would allow them to decrease headways and increase throughput there.
I don't believe that there are plans for any other pocket tracks further east, just crossovers.
I've never seen anything concrete regarding service plans with Phase 3 and beyond. Perhaps once the construction of Phase 2 starts to wind down, they'll start showing that process to the public.
That said, there is no reason, provided the network can deal with it, why they can't have uneven headways between trains running on different branches through the tunnel. It's commonly done elsewhere, and with little detriment.
Dan
lrt's friend
Active Member
Phase 3 offers no additional new branches. The two branches from Phase 2 will be extended, Algonquin (Baseline) to Barrhaven, Moodie to Kanata and Stittsville.
The city is expecting Phase 3 to be entirely funded by the federal and provincial governments because both Phase 1 and 2 have been underfunded by the higher levels of government. In both cases, the city has had to fund well over 33% of the cost whereas other Ontario cities have received a much better funding arrangement for their projects, sometimes a 0% municipal contribution.
At a meeting that I attended last night, it was a concern that LRT costs will be putting pressure on property taxes and transit fares going forward. Considering conservative estimates on inflation and interest rates, transit share of property taxes are to increase, and transit fares at a rate greater than present annual inflation. Some, including at least one city councilor, consider this unsustainable.
The city is expecting Phase 3 to be entirely funded by the federal and provincial governments because both Phase 1 and 2 have been underfunded by the higher levels of government. In both cases, the city has had to fund well over 33% of the cost whereas other Ontario cities have received a much better funding arrangement for their projects, sometimes a 0% municipal contribution.
At a meeting that I attended last night, it was a concern that LRT costs will be putting pressure on property taxes and transit fares going forward. Considering conservative estimates on inflation and interest rates, transit share of property taxes are to increase, and transit fares at a rate greater than present annual inflation. Some, including at least one city councilor, consider this unsustainable.
p_xavier
Active Member
That would make sense. It's not fair for Ottawa to burden such costs.
Thanks for the clarifications everyone. Blair also makes sense as a short-turn point, because as was mentioned the ridership does drop off after that point.
And while it's true that Phase 3 has no new branches, at one point the TMP included rapid transit to south Orleans (connecting to the Confederation Line at Blair), and rapid transit to Kanata North. Those I believe were both originally contemplated as BRTs, though given the flexibility of LRT technology those could also be built as Transit City-style LRTs.
The other two extensions I would like to see that weren't in the TMP are a branch running from Bayshore along the now rail-trail into Stittsville via Bells Corners, and a branch from Hurdman to Heron via the General/CHEO and the corridor around it. Both of these extensions wouldn't need full Confederation Line-style stations with complete grade separation, but could benefit from being connected to the Confederation Line mainline in the form of branches.
That's where my question about minimum theoretical headway came from, because you could conceivably have 3 or 4 branches from the west and 3 from the east using the central tunnel under that configuration. If the minimum headway resulted in insufficient frequency on the branches, one or more of them may have to become independently operating feeder routes in order to maintain the desired frequency.
And while it's true that Phase 3 has no new branches, at one point the TMP included rapid transit to south Orleans (connecting to the Confederation Line at Blair), and rapid transit to Kanata North. Those I believe were both originally contemplated as BRTs, though given the flexibility of LRT technology those could also be built as Transit City-style LRTs.
The other two extensions I would like to see that weren't in the TMP are a branch running from Bayshore along the now rail-trail into Stittsville via Bells Corners, and a branch from Hurdman to Heron via the General/CHEO and the corridor around it. Both of these extensions wouldn't need full Confederation Line-style stations with complete grade separation, but could benefit from being connected to the Confederation Line mainline in the form of branches.
That's where my question about minimum theoretical headway came from, because you could conceivably have 3 or 4 branches from the west and 3 from the east using the central tunnel under that configuration. If the minimum headway resulted in insufficient frequency on the branches, one or more of them may have to become independently operating feeder routes in order to maintain the desired frequency.
lrt's friend
Active Member
Some of those routes are not under consideration at all at the present time. The South Orleans route is set aside for BRT, however, I could see that switched to LRT eventually to balance the second western branch.. It is beyond Phase 3. The route to the Kanata Business Park will likely remain as BRT. Further branching of the Kanata LRT route will likely degrade frequency too much by branching further. The old rail route through Bell's Corners is unlikely to be ever considered. It has been a recreational trail since the early 90s. I cannot see it being acceptable to neighbours to allow it to switch back to rail after all these years unless the route is buried through residential Kanata and Stittsville. The 'Alta Vista' corridor between Hurdman and Walkley does not have a sufficient population base to support rail. Much of the land to the south is federal conservation land and will not be built on. It might become a BRT route someday but there has been great resistance in that area.
As I said, it is unlikely further branch lines will be built with the exception of South Orleans at some distant time in the future. The most likely Transit City style LRT route will be on Carling Avenue, again quite distant into the future. This is more likely to become BRT, much like the Baseline route, which is supposed to begin construction possibly this year.
The thing to also watch for are LRT routes on the Quebec side, which are more likely to be Transit City style routes.
I personally would like to see a Bank Street subway when the Trillium Line reaches capacity years down the road, rather than invest in further expensive improvements to the Trillium Line, which as you all know, does not go downtown. A Bank Street subway would serve Ottawa's principle commercial street including Lansdowne Park, and two major shopping centres.
The Ottawa Transportation Master Plan is to be revised soon so I hope to participate in public meetings in hope of getting the Bank Street subway concept on the map for the distant future. .
As I said, it is unlikely further branch lines will be built with the exception of South Orleans at some distant time in the future. The most likely Transit City style LRT route will be on Carling Avenue, again quite distant into the future. This is more likely to become BRT, much like the Baseline route, which is supposed to begin construction possibly this year.
The thing to also watch for are LRT routes on the Quebec side, which are more likely to be Transit City style routes.
I personally would like to see a Bank Street subway when the Trillium Line reaches capacity years down the road, rather than invest in further expensive improvements to the Trillium Line, which as you all know, does not go downtown. A Bank Street subway would serve Ottawa's principle commercial street including Lansdowne Park, and two major shopping centres.
The Ottawa Transportation Master Plan is to be revised soon so I hope to participate in public meetings in hope of getting the Bank Street subway concept on the map for the distant future. .
Kyle Campbell
Active Member
So a full discussion should include the BRT plans in Ottawa. Kanata north and Baseline are getting BRT, to put it in the GTA context think viva rapidways, rather then the Mississauga transitway (which itself is modelled after Ottawa's original transitway). The new BRT is surface based and at grade, with rather simplistic "stations"
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Allandale25
Senior Member
lrt's friend
Active Member
Because they will follow a boulevard, they will not be like Ottawa's past Transitways. Baseline will be a centre median design so it will designed rather like the Spadina streetcar route except with buses. Shelters will be modest because of space limitations. The Kanata BRT may be designed a little different and there may be fancier stations within the confines of the Business Park and at the LRT interchange.
If South Orleans is built as BRT, it will be more in line with Ottawa's past Transitways. Some design work has been done which will include some grade separations. This is why I think the public mayl press for LRT right away instead of building more grade separated busways. I think Ottawa's experiment with that is mostly over.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
I am anxiously awaiting the LRT to begin operating in one of my upcoming visits to Ottawa.
Regardless of the details of the delay, Ottawa is being born an LRT city and it's going to be called Ottawa's subway by visiting tourists, and will be very popular.
Once the LRT begin operating, then the first-few-months glitches are all sorted out -- Ottawans are going to demand LRT extensions.
Ottawa will grumble about the cost -- but will be eagerly demanding LRT extensions. Look at what happened to Calgary for example. You can count on it.
Regardless of the details of the delay, Ottawa is being born an LRT city and it's going to be called Ottawa's subway by visiting tourists, and will be very popular.
Once the LRT begin operating, then the first-few-months glitches are all sorted out -- Ottawans are going to demand LRT extensions.
Ottawa will grumble about the cost -- but will be eagerly demanding LRT extensions. Look at what happened to Calgary for example. You can count on it.
Kyle Campbell
Active Member
Well, it's already growing mighty fast:
2001 - 8km
2019 - 20km
2022 - 36 km
2024 - 48 km
2025 - 63 km
2031ish - 83 km
The TTC should have around 118km of subway by then, but the difference is stark when you consider the population difference
2001 - 8km
2019 - 20km
2022 - 36 km
2024 - 48 km
2025 - 63 km
2031ish - 83 km
The TTC should have around 118km of subway by then, but the difference is stark when you consider the population difference
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Kyle Campbell
Active Member
Although when you look at cities like Montreal and Toronto they also expanded to the 60-70 km range fairly quickly, but then cities seem to stall there. It's like you reach a critical mass for a backbone, then get stuck with endless debates and cancelled plans