C_Johnson_1995
New Member
Could you imagine if they suggested extending it even further to somewhere like Timmins? These fantasy maps really are something.Could be worse, some think that a Toronto to North Bay train would be a good idea!
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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation
- Thread starter CDL.TO
- Start date
micheal_can
Senior Member
What would even be more fantastical would be a train to the James Bay coast! Even more the idea of it going to a place with only 4000 people. What is more crazy, would be if it ran more often than any of Via's non Corridor service.
The Polar Bear Express Passenger Train - Ontario Northland
C_Johnson_1995
New Member
BCRs are fairly comprehensive and take a wide range of anticipated impacts into account. Even if not perfect, they provide a reasonable benchmark to compare this investment against other options. A negative BCR weighed against the backlog of projects elsewhere that have a positive BCR suggest this project probably shouldn't get a sniff until near the end of this century. Road improvements and enhanced bus services would likely have a greater general utility and even if they have a negative BCR, they would likely be much closer to 1 and would meet the region's needs more effectively. With the amount being spent on the Northlander, it would probably be feasible to have a dozen busses per day between the North and Toronto. I think that would be much more beneficial.
You are just being unserious. The train only exists because there is no other option. You can't justify the existence of an inherently wasteful and opulent project that is doomed for failure like the Northlander which is paralleled by roads for its entire route with a remote service like this.What would even be more fantastical would be a train to the James Bay coast! Even more the idea of it going to a place with only 4000 people. What is more crazy, would be if it ran more often than any of Via's non Corridor service.
The Polar Bear Express Passenger Train - Ontario Northland
www.ontarionorthland.ca
I would also like to reiterate the fact that since this service will be subsidised by Ontario Northland's freight revenues, its failure will put the rest of the organisation at risk. Should freight traffic fall on hard times like with the upcoming North American trade war, the whole organisation becomes at risk of privatization or wholesale track abandonment. Every bit of profit from freight should be reinvested in freight to build resiliency. I wouldn't be surprised if this move was also an underhanded move to undermine ONTC in the long term, beyond being just a cynical move to buy votes of course.
crs1026
Superstar
BCR's are critical to public oversight because they compell the agency to define scope and disclose details, issues, and risks - to allow full debate and disclosure. The point is not neccessarily to establish a precise measure - BCR ratios are pretty flimsy, with wide range of error, but they do generally articulate costs (at quantum level, perhaps) versus revenue/benefit or trigger discussion and debate about what costs should be captured and considered (coughRailpathcough). A BCR does not "prove" anything but it provides a much more adult debate than otherwise happens with political decisions.
In this case, I'm not seeing a conspiracy theory, simply a government that is so desperate to please on a superficial level that money is no object and analysis and careful thinking is not part of their repertoire.
But I agree that should this train fail, it will be prejudicial both for ONR and for passenger rail reputationally. More pressing and useful projects could be shelved because of the optics and bad taste created. (One hears comments that ML GO Expansion is being cut back - I suspect this government has learned that building transit and infrastructure is beyond their competency level.... it may be that transit/intercity rail becomes unpopular with QP just because they can't manage it. They may return to building highways instead. That sour taste may well spread to federal or to other provinces).
- Paul
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micheal_can
Senior Member
And what happens when the highway closes for over 16 hours? All the math done in a southern ON office building with easy access to multiple modes of transportation is what is the problem with planning out anything in Northern ON. The fact that the head offices of ONR are and have always been in North Bay is a great thing as those people live the life we all live.
I will admit it was a tongue in cheek response. However, it was all factual. There are more than just dollars and cents reasons for doing things.
One thing I have thought was a line from Moosonee to Churchill, connecting the communities up there. The problem is, especially these days, people would say the RI is way too low. However, the people it would serve would say otherwise.
GO transit and the TTC are subsidized too. When are we going to shut them down?
The 401 is subsidized. When will it be shut down?
Arguing subsidies is pointless. Instead, why not ague about the actual usage of it? For example, you might try and ague the train will be empty for the whole way. You might try to argue that the schedule won't work for people. (People of the north actually want that schedule.) If you are going to argue subsidy, then it should be a blanket argument, not just on things you may never use.
drum118
Superstar
lenaitch
Senior Member
I suspect that Northlander operations, much like every other form of public transportation, will be subsidized by the government. It's actually discussed in the Business Case. I doubt TTC operating costs are subsidized by garbage pick-up or snow removal.
cplchanb
Senior Member
the winning design actually looks pretty good!
C_Johnson_1995
New Member
You deal with it on a case by case basis as is done now. It's not as if roads in the north are blocked 50% of the time. It doesn't constitute a crisis.
Subsidies are fine if used correctly, but here they will likely bring down a politically vulnerable service that has been on the brink of being wiped out before.
That's not why I have a problem with the subsidies. I don't actually think you read my post so go back and look through it again. But in case it was too hard to understand for whatever reason, what I was trying to say is that forcing Ontario Northland to CROSS SUBSIDISE THE SERVICE WITH THEIR FREIGHT REVENUES will put them at considerable risk by not allowing them to reinvest and create resiliency in their freight business.
Also, the train will be empty as you point out.
It will not be subsidized by the government.
Northlander passenger rail service will be funded by freight contracts
More freight in the works for northern Ontario, Pirie says
www.timminspress.com
lenaitch
Senior Member
Not what their own business case says.
micheal_can
Senior Member
In general, a snow storm will close a highway in Northern ON. There was a particularly bad storm where 17 north of SSM, 144 north of Sudbury and 11 north of North Bay were all closed at the same time. Most are not closed purely due to weather, as the case with the one that just happened, but due to the high number of accidents. They tend to stay closed for 4-8 hours for the police investigation.
Freight along the ONR line has never been on the brink of being wiped out. However, the governments of the day tend to want to offload it. That is a different situation. Imagine if they didn't offload the 407.
So what? The government has a money making thing that will fund something that may not make money, but both will serve the voters of the area. How is that bad? What is subsidizing GO transit?
What information do you have to support that?
It will not be subsidized by the government.
Northlander passenger rail service will be funded by freight contracts
More freight in the works for northern Ontario, Pirie says
ONR freight is a government run entity. So, yes it will be subsidized by the government. The difference is unlike GO the Northlander has a revenue stream that will support it.
Mind_the_gap
Active Member
ProjectEnd
Superstar
I saw that on Twitter! Absolutely gorgeous!
cplchanb
Senior Member
full trainset... i have to say this looks BETTER than the via ventures except for Lumi. the paint scheme is symmetrical unlike the disconnected via loco livery from the rest of the train