Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[crs1026]

^I read the announcement as significant, in that it implies that Cochrane will not be the operational base. That may mean running maintenance will happen in Toronto. Buying VIA-compatible Siemens trainsets makes a lot of sense in that scenario.

A train to Timmins that doesn’t actually reach Timmins strikes me as bad planning. Watch for a pre-election announcement of local contracting to put the rails back somehow.

- Paul

 

[DSC]

It would be a shame to have no rail in a gap that small, in the grander scale of Ontario.

I too like things to be 'joined up but the real questions is "are there customers now, or in the future?" No point providing a train if it has no freight or human passengers.

 

[lenaitch]

I suspect that the station will be at the current end of track.

I tend to agree. If not at the end of current rail then darned close to it (even on the south side of Hwy 101). Wherever they can access land for whatever facilities will be required. A bit out of the city centre but serviceable by transit and car (or, in Timmins terms, truck).

It really does make sense terminating the service at the major population centre for the area: ~43,000 vs ~5300.

How is this taking another step?
I can name a terminus in a couple minutes. Watch.
"We have named Moose Factory – one of the largest municipalities on James Bay and a major employment hub in the region – as the terminus station."
That was easy.

If nothing else, it enables planners to focus and start implementing whatever is necessary. Moose Factory would be difficult as a terminus - it's on an island.

Does that imply that the PBE will be extended to Timmins?

I highly doubt it. Because it is a mixed train, it would have to be broken and re-made every time it passed through Cochrane. The PBX is a remote service for Moosonee and area with tourism on the side. It makes much more sense to provide a connection between the two services via bus. With the former service, it was Timmins that had the bus connection.

I agree. Just looking at Google satellite view, in my opinion, it looks like it would be reasonably easy to cross that lake with a causeway/bridge engineered solution. Even rerouting the ROW around the lakeshore should be possible.

I think he was referring to the gap between Timmins and Cochrane. I think filling in the gap from current end-of-rail to the former downtown station would be more expensive than it is worth. Some of the ROW is now in City hands for recreational use and bits have been built over. As far as I know, Pearl Lake is privately owned by Newmont Resources. You'd be surprised at the amount of seemingly vacant land with the city that is either owned by mining companies or who hold mining rights on it.

The best way to put question marks over a project like this is to ratchet up the costs.

 

[lenaitch]

^I read the announcement as significant, in that it implies that Cochrane will not be the operational base. That may mean running maintenance will happen in Toronto. Buying VIA-compatible Siemens trainsets makes a lot of sense in that scenario.

A train to Timmins that doesn’t actually reach Timmins strikes me as bad planning. Watch for a pre-election announcement of local contracting to put the rails back somehow.

- Paul

Since it won't be a daily service (I don't think), they could deadhead to/from Cochrane.

The train does go the Timmins, just not to the city centre. The modern municipality of Timmins - which is geographically huge - amalgamated a whole whack of smaller communities that coalesced around various mines.

 

[micheal_can]

^I read the announcement as significant, in that it implies that Cochrane will not be the operational base. That may mean running maintenance will happen in Toronto. Buying VIA-compatible Siemens trainsets makes a lot of sense in that scenario.

A train to Timmins that doesn’t actually reach Timmins strikes me as bad planning. Watch for a pre-election announcement of local contracting to put the rails back somehow.

- Paul

Cochrane can be the operational base, with the trains being serviced there as needed, providing they have enough spare equipment.

The city of Timmins, or the former city of Timmins? Golden City is part of the current City of Timmins. So, it is really a question as to what they mean. For example, the city of Greater Sudbury is served by the Canadian at 2 different stations, but not the downtown station.

Since it won't be a daily service (I don't think), they could deadhead to/from Cochrane.

The train does go the Timmins, just not to the city centre. The modern municipality of Timmins - which is geographically huge - amalgamated a whole whack of smaller communities that coalesced around various mines.

 

[crs1026]

^ A train that actually starts its run in Cochrane, doesn’t run into the centre of Timmins, but is said to be a Timmins - Toronto train….. only in Ontario.

I suspect there is no avoiding a “last mile” issue, and perhaps a transfer down 101 is the most efficient way of serving the area…. the rail route to Timmins (if it were relaid) is circuitous and would likely be slower.

Still, selling even two tickets to Cochrane per run would make a dent in the fuel bill.… but hey, it’s about votes not economics I guess.

- Paul

 

[Towered]

I tend to agree. If not at the end of current rail then darned close to it (even on the south side of Hwy 101). Wherever they can access land for whatever facilities will be required. A bit out of the city centre but serviceable by transit and car (or, in Timmins terms, truck).

It really does make sense terminating the service at the major population centre for the area: ~43,000 vs ~5300.

If nothing else, it enables planners to focus and start implementing whatever is necessary. Moose Factory would be difficult as a terminus - it's on an island.

I highly doubt it. Because it is a mixed train, it would have to be broken and re-made every time it passed through Cochrane. The PBX is a remote service for Moosonee and area with tourism on the side. It makes much more sense to provide a connection between the two services via bus. With the former service, it was Timmins that had the bus connection.

I think he was referring to the gap between Timmins and Cochrane. I think filling in the gap from current end-of-rail to the former downtown station would be more expensive than it is worth. Some of the ROW is now in City hands for recreational use and bits have been built over. As far as I know, Pearl Lake is privately owned by Newmont Resources. You'd be surprised at the amount of seemingly vacant land with the city that is either owned by mining companies or who hold mining rights on it.

The best way to put question marks over a project like this is to ratchet up the costs.

If we're serious about fighting climate change and discouraging sprawl, the train needs to go to downtown Timmins, full stop. Anything less is a half-assed farce.

 

[Allandale25]

NEWS RELEASE Ontario Appoints New Chair and Vice-Chair of Ontario Northland Transportation Commission​ Former Mayor of Kapuskasing and governance consultant will lead agency modernization and help strengthen transportation network in the North November 05, 2021 Ministry of Transportation

TORONTO ― The Ontario government has appointed community leader Alan Spacek as Chair of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission (ONTC) and Robert J. (“RJ”) Falconi as Vice-Chair. The appointments took effect October 28, 2021. “With their extensive experience and knowledge of Northern Ontario, Alan Spacek and RJ Falconi will play an integral role in modernizing the ONTC,” said Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation. “Our government has fought for Northern Ontario since day one, and together, we look forward to working closely with Alan and RJ and the entire team at the ONTC to improve and expand the transportation network in the North.” A respected entrepreneur, Alan Spacek was Mayor of Kapuskasing from 2006 to 2018 and former President of the Federation of Northern Ontario Municipalities. He has served as Chair of the Municipal Property Assessment Corporation since September 2019. His life’s work has centered on the Northern economy – helping businesses to pursue economic development opportunities and remain competitive. “I am incredibly honoured to serve as Chair of the ONTC and work in partnership with MTO to support the agency’s continued modernization efforts,” said Alan Spacek, Chair of the ONTC. “Our team is extremely passionate about serving the needs of our Northern communities to ensure they have a strong transportation network for generations to come.” RJ Falconi was born and raised in North Bay and is the Managing Director of RayleeValleyGroup. A Commissioner of the ONTC since January 2020 and Chair of its Governance Committee, he is also Chair of the Technical Standards and Safety Authority’s Board and a member of the Tarion Warranty Corporation’s Board, the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters’ Ontario Advisory Board and the York Durham Heritage Railway Board. “I look forward to sharing my extensive legal, governance and transportation/rail experience with the ONTC in the capacity as Vice Chair to support Mr. Spacek, and to further MTO’s efforts in building a strong transportation network in Northern Ontario,” said RJ Falconi, Vice-Chair of the ONTC. “With many of my family members who dedicated their entire careers at the Ontario Northland Railway, I am honoured to accept this appointment and contribute as they did to the success and long-term sustainability of the ONTC.” Before stepping down, Thomas Laughren served as ONTC Chair from 2015 to 2021. He led the agency’s motor coach service expansion throughout Northwestern Ontario, oversaw both passenger and freight rail activities and initiated the agency’s response plan to the COVID-19 pandemic. “Our government thanks Thomas Laughren for his dedicated service to the province as former Chair of the ONTC,” said Minister Mulroney. “Thomas was integral in leading the agency’s expansion through the Northwest, and we are very appreciative of his contributions to support and grow the Northern transportation network.”

Quick Facts​ Since the transfer of the ONTC’s oversight from the Ministry of Northern Development, Mines, Natural Resources and Forestry (NDMNRF) to the Ministry of Transportation (MTO) in April 2020, MTO has been working closely with the ONTC to modernize the agency. The Agencies and Appointments Directive, issued in 2015, sets out the policies and procedures for all public appointments. These policies and procedures are intended to ensure that the most qualified people with the highest personal and professional integrity serve the public on the Province’s agencies, boards and commissions.

Additional Resources​ Ontario Northland Agencies and Appointments Directive

 

[innsertnamehere]

If we're serious about fighting climate change and discouraging sprawl, the train needs to go to downtown Timmins, full stop. Anything less is a half-assed farce.

it's Timmins. I don't think there are concerns about the environmental impacts of sprawl up there. They are happy to get new development of any kind, the town has been losing population for years. Even if it was growing it's not exactly surrounded by sensitive farmland and the area is extremely sparsely populated.

The town also has essentially a 100% car ownership rate. Putting the station on the eastern edge of town isn't going to matter for the vast majority of passengers as they will all be driving and parking already basically. The few that don't own cars are captive passengers and will be taking the bus out to the station regardless.

No way it's worth it to spend the millions to bring the station downtown, it just doesn't really have any extra utility.

That's obviously not the case in all locations, but in a town like Timmins, and the requirements to get the train back downtown, I just don't see it being worth it for the marginal gains.


This whole train is already going to have a massive subsidy, especially north of North Bay, no point throwing more money down the drain.

 

[Northern Light]

it's Timmins. I don't think there are concerns about the environmental impacts of sprawl up there. They are happy to get new development of any kind, the town has been losing population for years. Even if it was growing it's not exactly surrounded by sensitive farmland and the area is extremely sparsely populated.

While all of that may be true; Downtown Timmins is not in great shape and could certainly use the boost.

I'm sure area residents want to be proud of the appearance of their city, even if most drive and many live in the outlying areas.

To line downtown streets with quality retail, fill in some of the blank spots, restore some of the eyesores, you need foot traffic and more residents downtown.

There is certainly ample room in their downtown for the above; and having the train terminate there would be a (modest) positive in the right direction.

 

[innsertnamehere]

yes, that would be great, but a once daily train that takes 50% longer than the bus to get to Toronto, which is in itself a 7 hour drive away, is not going to suddenly stimulate demand for high density intensification in a town with very affordable low-rise real estate and a shrinking economy and population.

 

[Northern Light]

yes, that would be great, but a once daily train that takes 50% longer than the bus to get to Toronto, which is in itself a 7 hour drive away, is not going to suddenly stimulate demand for high density intensification in a town with very affordable low-rise real estate and a shrinking economy and population.

I didn't say it would. I said its a 'modest' step in the right direction.

And any terminus that draws development further away from DT Timmins is a modest, but real step in the wrong direction.

 

[lenaitch]

I doubt we will see much development around the terminus; it's not like a GO transit stop. There is still little clarity on what the schedule will be, but I doubt even a daily service will spur much development.

The anomaly that Timmins is on a stub branchline goes back to the original charter for the Timiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway to open up the Timiskaming District (and, later, on to James Bay) and the clay belt for settlement. Interestingly, Timmins in 1921 had a population of 3843 according to Wiki; Cobalt was 4449. My how things have changed (41718 vs 1118 for 2016). Such is the world of resource towns.

Although it's early days, not a peep in the Timmins Free Press. My North Bay Now quotes the mayor as saying "the fact that Porcupine has been chosen as their terminus location" seems to indicate that the decision has been made for the current end of rail, as predicted. I suspect they are happy they are getting rail, period.

 

[micheal_can]

yes, that would be great, but a once daily train that takes 50% longer than the bus to get to Toronto, which is in itself a 7 hour drive away, is not going to suddenly stimulate demand for high density intensification in a town with very affordable low-rise real estate and a shrinking economy and population.

With the Great Exodus still in progress and no sign of stopping, actually, downtown Timmins does make sense for this kind of development. Imagine people from Timmins who moved away return back, but want to give up the car. It may be a small group, but so many things are at play, a downtown station does make sense.

I doubt we will see much development around the terminus; it's not like a GO transit stop. There is still little clarity on what the schedule will be, but I doubt even a daily service will spur much development.

The anomaly that Timmins is on a stub branchline goes back to the original charter for the Timiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway to open up the Timiskaming District (and, later, on to James Bay) and the clay belt for settlement. Interestingly, Timmins in 1921 had a population of 3843 according to Wiki; Cobalt was 4449. My how things have changed (41718 vs 1118 for 2016). Such is the world of resource towns.

Although it's early days, not a peep in the Timmins Free Press. My North Bay Now quotes the mayor as saying "the fact that Porcupine has been chosen as their terminus location" seems to indicate that the decision has been made for the current end of rail, as predicted. I suspect they are happy they are getting rail, period.

North bay's MPP is a PC. The Timmins MPP is a NDP.. It matters more to the one in North Bay to get re-elected, and drumming up news articles that show he did something for the North is enough sometimes. This project is more political than anything else.

 

[Allandale25]

Revived passenger rail to end in Timmins - Mulroney

Passenger rail is expected to return to the North but the rail line from Toronto will end in Timmins instead of Cochrane.

www.nugget.ca