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The Urban Jungle
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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

micheal_can said:
That is good news. Maybe by the fall the Northlander will be back.



It likely pays the cost of getting the old coaches up to par and any track improvements needed.

ACR is not part of it, at least not for now. If they do bring that back, they should try to get something back on the HCR as well. Have a trail connect North Bay to SSM via Sudbury.
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I mean it pretty clearly pays for design work, no actual construction.

The PCs have kicked this election promise down the road to not pay for it. They'll want to show "progress" by the next election, but the fact that the initial business case is getting published 3 years into their term shows you the level of urgency they are placing on this..

I'm interested in seeing the IBC. By the looks of it they are tying to implement a more practical and actually useful service than existed in 2012.. Likely with a half decent capital cost associated with it that will involve more than just rebuilding a couple of old passenger cars.
 
innsertnamehere said:
I mean it pretty clearly pays for design work, no actual construction.

The PCs have kicked this election promise down the road to not pay for it. They'll want to show "progress" by the next election, but the fact that the initial business case is getting published 3 years into their term shows you the level of urgency they are placing on this..

I'm interested in seeing the IBC. By the looks of it they are tying to implement a more practical and actually useful service than existed in 2012.. Likely with a half decent capital cost associated with it that will involve more than just rebuilding a couple of old passenger cars.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of properly resurrecting and reimagining the service, not just replicating the old Northlander. The cottage market is a huge untapped opportunity, and yeah I know last mile is an issue, but many cottage families stay up North all summer, while the breadwinner travels back and forth each week, meaning they’ll have someone to pick them up at the station.

I assume CN would want some new infrastructure like passing tracks on its corridor? And I’m okay with that if it reduces delays.
 
innsertnamehere said:
I mean it pretty clearly pays for design work, no actual construction.

The PCs have kicked this election promise down the road to not pay for it. They'll want to show "progress" by the next election, but the fact that the initial business case is getting published 3 years into their term shows you the level of urgency they are placing on this..

I'm interested in seeing the IBC. By the looks of it they are tying to implement a more practical and actually useful service than existed in 2012.. Likely with a half decent capital cost associated with it that will involve more than just rebuilding a couple of old passenger cars.
Click to expand...

What construction is needed? All the stations are still there. The only work might be some track upgrades.

SaugeenJunction said:
I like the idea of properly resurrecting and reimagining the service, not just replicating the old Northlander. The cottage market is a huge untapped opportunity, and yeah I know last mile is an issue, but many cottage families stay up North all summer, while the breadwinner travels back and forth each week, meaning they’ll have someone to pick them up at the station.

I assume CN would want some new infrastructure like passing tracks on its corridor? And I’m okay with that if it reduces delays.
Click to expand...
They really should add service between North Bay and Toronto on top of the Northlander to service the cottage traffic. The issue might be that there is no real good transit options once you are off the train to get to your cottage.
 
micheal_can said:
What construction is needed? All the stations are still there. The only work might be some track upgrades.


They really should add service between North Bay and Toronto on top of the Northlander to service the cottage traffic. The issue might be that there is no real good transit options once you are off the train to get to your cottage.
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You can build a shuttle service to take you to your cottage and charge a flat rate similar to airport limousine services. I'm sure operators like Hammond will be interested.
 
micheal_can said:
What construction is needed? All the stations are still there. The only work might be some track upgrades.
Click to expand...
Bordercollie said:
You can build a shuttle service to take you to your cottage and charge a flat rate similar to airport limousine services. I'm sure operators like Hammond will be interested.
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The buildings might physically be in place but they might need funding bring them up to standards, renovate them back from whatever use they currently have by tenants, remove railings/fences that separate non-rail use from the ROW, etc. They haven't been used as stations, or perhaps not anything at all, since 2012.

A shuttle/taxi service might work and if there is a business model in it, no doubt some entrepreneur may pick it up or the municipalities may be interested. Not a role for the railway.
 
^ Also, "some" track upgrades may involve new sidings. I'm certainly not an expert but discussions with CN are needed and they do come at a cost. And maybe other complexity? Signalling? cc @crs1026
 
Allandale25 said:
^ Also, "some" track upgrades may involve new sidings. I'm certainly not an expert but discussions with CN are needed and they do come at a cost. And maybe other complexity? Signalling? cc @crs1026
Click to expand...

The position paper issued by the people doing advocacy over the past while suggested that some double tracking would be needed between Setter (Bloomington) and Washago. I don’t know if they had input from CN or just assumed a need. Either way, It’s a very credible suggestion.
There is often congestion at Doncaster, and CN’s general practice is to run freights in “fleets” of 2-3 trains at a time, because there is only one long siding on that segment (at Brechin East).. I could see the Northlander getting tucked into a siding to let a fleet by, just as VIA sometimes is on the transcon.
CN runs some time sensitive intermodal trains on that line and I’m sure they would not budge over who gets priority. So it would be a case of accept what CN can tolerate, or build more track to assure reliability. And, stay out of slots needed by GO.

- Paul
 
^ all the more reason it'll be interesting to see what the IBC says. I wonder if it'll use the Metrolinx template and if they'll get into the detail of sidings. Hopefully they do because people here enjoy that level of detail.
 
micheal_can said:
What construction is needed? All the stations are still there. The only work might be some track upgrades.


They really should add service between North Bay and Toronto on top of the Northlander to service the cottage traffic. The issue might be that there is no real good transit options once you are off the train to get to your cottage.
Click to expand...
The last mile has two obvious solutions in my opinion - taxis or Uber (if Uber even exists up there?), or family members picking up family members/guests at the station. I doubt the Northlander would ever be a viable “entire family going to the cottage“ solution, driving is easier for that. It’s a great ”guest coming to visit” or “mom/dad is coming up for the weekend to be with the family after working in Toronto” solution. In the latter case, someone up there should theoretically have a car for the last mile.
 
crs1026 said:
The position paper issued by the people doing advocacy over the past while suggested that some double tracking would be needed between Setter (Bloomington) and Washago. I don’t know if they had input from CN or just assumed a need. Either way, It’s a very credible suggestion.
There is often congestion at Doncaster, and CN’s general practice is to run freights in “fleets” of 2-3 trains at a time, because there is only one long siding on that segment (at Brechin East).. I could see the Northlander getting tucked into a siding to let a fleet by, just as VIA sometimes is on the transcon.
CN runs some time sensitive intermodal trains on that line and I’m sure they would not budge over who gets priority. So it would be a case of accept what CN can tolerate, or build more track to assure reliability. And, stay out of slots needed by GO.

- Paul
Click to expand...
It's too bad the Newmarket sub right of way wasn't still intact between Washago and Allendale. That would pretty much avoid CN's intermodal conflicts, however it would require Metrolinx negotiation for slots south of Allendale.
 
Fritter said:
It's too bad the Newmarket sub right of way wasn't still intact between Washago and Allendale. That would pretty much avoid CN's intermodal conflicts, however it would require Metrolinx negotiation for slots south of Allendale.
Click to expand...
It’s was a very shortsighted loss. Orillia would probably have GO service today if the line was intact. In terms of stops, I’d hope the Northlander would have an additional GTA stop. Maybe Langstaff GO would fit the bill due to future subway connectivity?
 
Fritter said:
It's too bad the Newmarket sub right of way wasn't still intact between Washago and Allendale. That would pretty much avoid CN's intermodal conflicts, however it would require Metrolinx negotiation for slots south of Allendale.
Click to expand...

Most of it is intact.

SaugeenJunction said:
It’s was a very shortsighted loss. Orillia would probably have GO service today if the line was intact. In terms of stops, I’d hope the Northlander would have an additional GTA stop. Maybe Langstaff GO would fit the bill due to future subway connectivity?
Click to expand...

Maybe this is why Metrolinx is involved. Maybe there is plans for something more than just the old Northlander service back in.
 
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