Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[robmausser]

I was wondering, what would the fare need to be between Toronto and Cochrane to fully pay for the train if the train was full?

Fully pay? No subsidization? A LOT.

But so would any train line in Canada. They all are subsidized by the government to some degree.

 

[Urban Sky]

Fully pay? No subsidization? A LOT.

But so would any train line in Canada. They all are subsidized by the government to some degree.

If you are satisfied with “recovering its direct costs”, then VIA’s Corridor trains have a cost-recovery of approximately 130%:

Note: Re-post. For details and sources, please see my original post in the VIA Rail thread.

 

[micheal_can]

Fully pay? No subsidization? A LOT.

But so would any train line in Canada. They all are subsidized by the government to some degree.

I know the expectation is that HFR will see it be not needing a subsidy along it if it works out. I am just trying to understand how high a fare would be needed so that the cost of the run is fully covered by the passengers using it.

 

[robmausser]

I know the expectation is that HFR will see it be not needing a subsidy along it if it works out.

Really? Who said that?

 

[micheal_can]

Really? Who said that?

Lots of people, including Via. they expect to break even.

 

[christine]

I found several things when reading 588-R-1993 CTA order/discussion (a great read if you have a few minutes):

Several interveners alleged that the charges paid by ONTC to CN for operating the service are significantly higher than charges in similar agreements between other carriers. In fact, the Rukavina Report presented rather startling differences in charges paid to CN by different railway companies for similar services. CN argued that these charges are a matter of confidential negotiation between the parties and should not be discussed in an open forum.

This one is particularly interesting:

When asked about the number of riders that would be required for the service to break even, Mr. Dyment (ONTC president) replied that even if all seats on the present train were filled, the service would still incur significant losses, given the current costs of the operation. Discussion then ensued as to whether adding more equipment could hypothetically lead to a break-even or profitable situation. Mr. Dyment said that once the present consist was filled, the addition of more equipment would not only increase revenues, but it would also increase costs. He made a rough estimate based on the present revenue/cost/ridership relationship, indicating that it would take the equivalent of the total population of Northern Ontario riding the train annually (i.e., some 200 000 trips) to make the service profitable.

On the topic of subsidy of the Northlander, from what it looks like the subsidy was likely to be under $100 per passenger for the year prior to cancellation. However this depends on how you look at the government reimbursement numbers and the entire organization as a whole. There are many curiosities in the 2012 report but it was clear that the numbers were placed strategically to create an excuse for selling off the company.

 

[Bordercollie]

I found several things when reading 588-R-1993 CTA order/discussion (a great read if you have a few minutes):



This one is particularly interesting:



On the topic of subsidy of the Northlander, from what it looks like the subsidy was likely to be under $100 per passenger for the year prior to cancellation. However this depends on how you look at the government reimbursement numbers and the entire organization as a whole. There are many curiosities in the 2012 report but it was clear that the numbers were placed strategically to create an excuse for selling off the company.

So negotiate a better rate for track rights. How much does VIA or Metrolinx pay vs what ONR pays?

 

[christine]

So negotiate a better rate for track rights. How much does VIA or Metrolinx pay vs what ONR pays?

Well this is from 1993 but who knows if the unfavourable deal was still on the books in 2011-2012. I'd like to know VIA and Metrolinx's numbers as well but I''d bet they'd argue confidentiality with those agreements.

 

[micheal_can]

On the topic of subsidy of the Northlander, from what it looks like the subsidy was likely to be under $100 per passenger for the year prior to cancellation. However this depends on how you look at the government reimbursement numbers and the entire organization as a whole. There are many curiosities in the 2012 report but it was clear that the numbers were placed strategically to create an excuse for selling off the company.

That isn't that high. The way some talk, it would be in the thousands.

Now, the better question, would bumping up the cost so that if it were full the whole way up, the fare would cover the cost be viable.

 

[Catenary]

The key I see there isn't the revenue, it's the costs. What kind of system is so inefficient that adding another car is barely worth it? What was the staffing ratio? How else could costs be cut? The train consisted of a freight locomotive, power car for HEP, a couple of coaches, and a cafe car, so 60% of the train was non-revenue. They also had to pay VIA to overnight in Toronto, as well as the movements to wye the train at both ends.

If the service were to re-start, how could costs be reduced? Food service more in line with VIA would eliminate the cafe car. A couple of additional NPCU/APUs like ONTC now has for the Polar Bear Express could replace the power car, and eliminate the need to wye the train. This would still allow a standard freight locomotive to provide motive power, since ONTC has them already in their fleet. ONTC is also now under the same agency as Metrolinx - are there savings working with them to service the train, and overnight it if necessary in Toronto? Many of these solutions have been raised by others, but it's especially relevent when you consider the high operating the legacy service.

 

[Bordercollie]

The key I see there isn't the revenue, it's the costs. What kind of system is so inefficient that adding another car is barely worth it? What was the staffing ratio? How else could costs be cut? The train consisted of a freight locomotive, power car for HEP, a couple of coaches, and a cafe car, so 60% of the train was non-revenue. They also had to pay VIA to overnight in Toronto, as well as the movements to wye the train at both ends.

If the service were to re-start, how could costs be reduced? Food service more in line with VIA would eliminate the cafe car. A couple of additional NPCU/APUs like ONTC now has for the Polar Bear Express could replace the power car, and eliminate the need to wye the train. This would still allow a standard freight locomotive to provide motive power, since ONTC has them already in their fleet. ONTC is also now under the same agency as Metrolinx - are there savings working with them to service the train, and overnight it if necessary in Toronto? Many of these solutions have been raised by others, but it's especially relevent when you consider the high operating the legacy service.

Do we have any surplus F59PH's. lying around?
Also by using GO bi-level equiptment it would be standard and can be run in push pull config. All you would need is one Bilevel and a cab car with an F59PH. You may want to install some luggage racks, and a space for the conductor to sit. What happened to the Niagara bike train cars? Where they converted back? I wonder if they could have a Business class to add additional revenue?

 

[Catenary]

Do we have any surplus F59PH's. lying around?
Also by using GO bi-level equiptment it would be standard and can be run in push pull config. All you would need is one Bilevel and a cab car with an F59PH. You may want to install some luggage racks, and a space for the conductor to sit. What happened to the Niagara bike train cars? Where they converted back? I wonder if they could have a Business class to add additional revenue?

There will be some old VIA locomotives on the market soon, but to some extent it doesn't matter if there are old ones locally, since the market is fairly integrated. ONTC got theirs from NRE, and there's no reason they couldn't go shopping in the US again. Prices are going to be similar no matter where you find equipment.

There is a benefit of having an integrated cab car with the bilevels, but the existing locomotives don't have HEP, so a generator is required somewhere. That's the benefit of the current setup for the Polar Bear - they can draw from their existing pool of standard freight locomotives, and then the HEP comes from the NPCU/APU (CAPU?).

Bilevels have some other benefits, including simplified wheelchair access, but all the old Northlander equipment still exists. I don't know what condition it's all in, and I assume they've been picking through it to refurb for the Polar Bear, but that is where I would start.

 

[Bordercollie]

There will be some old VIA locomotives on the market soon, but to some extent it doesn't matter if there are old ones locally, since the market is fairly integrated. ONTC got theirs from NRE, and there's no reason they couldn't go shopping in the US again. Prices are going to be similar no matter where you find equipment.

There is a benefit of having an integrated cab car with the bilevels, but the existing locomotives don't have HEP, so a generator is required somewhere. That's the benefit of the current setup for the Polar Bear - they can draw from their existing pool of standard freight locomotives, and then the HEP comes from the NPCU/APU (CAPU?).

Bilevels have some other benefits, including simplified wheelchair access, but all the old Northlander equipment still exists. I don't know what condition it's all in, and I assume they've been picking through it to refurb for the Polar Bear, but that is where I would start.

Are there any used comet or horizon cars available in the US?

 

[micheal_can]

Do we have any surplus F59PH's. lying around?
Also by using GO bi-level equiptment it would be standard and can be run in push pull config. All you would need is one Bilevel and a cab car with an F59PH. You may want to install some luggage racks, and a space for the conductor to sit. What happened to the Niagara bike train cars? Where they converted back? I wonder if they could have a Business class to add additional revenue?

There were plans to use the bilevels on the PBX but it was detirmed that the track conditions were too rough for them. I don' think the conditions between Washago and Cochrane are much better.

 

[Bordercollie]

There were plans to use the bilevels on the PBX but it was detirmed that the track conditions were too rough for them. I don' think the conditions between Washago and Cochrane are much better.

But those cars go up to north bay for refurbishment all the time.