Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[muller877]

Has anyone offered a validated price tag for restoring this service?

I can't see Ford getting past the sticker shock.

- Paul

He said about $40m per year for a subsidy. Plus an EA for any upgrades...said he would do it as fast as possible.

Does anyone know the quality of the track? Still usable (I know there is a tourist train on part of the route but is it OK past Temagami)?

 

[lenaitch]

He said about $40m per year for a subsidy. Plus an EA for any upgrades...said he would do it as fast as possible.

Does anyone know the quality of the track? Still usable (I know there is a tourist train on part of the route but is it OK past Temagami)?

I couldn't find a reference to the track classifications of the various subdivisions, but freight is operated throughout their network, with passenger on the Island Falls Subdivision (Cochrane to Moosonee).

 

[crs1026]

Train speed has fallen dramatically on the ONR, thanks to deferred maintenance since the Northlander stopped running. It's a branch line quality roadbed these days.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

He said about $40m per year for a subsidy. Plus an EA for any upgrades...said he would do it as fast as possible.

Does anyone know the quality of the track? Still usable (I know there is a tourist train on part of the route but is it OK past Temagami)?

So, not this term?

 

[crs1026]

There is also the issue that running passenger trains over ‘dark’ (ie unsignalled) territory just isn’t acceptable anymore. The cost of signalling Gravenhurst to North Bay would be substantial. And, there are no long sidings on that part of the route. As we have seen elsewhere, CN will put their operation first, moreso than in the past.

I’m not opposing the idea, I just can’t reconcile it with Mr Squeeze-out-the-gravy’s platform.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

There is also the issue that running passenger trains over ‘dark’ (ie unsignalled) territory just isn’t acceptable anymore. The cost of signalling Gravenhurst to North Bay would be substantial. And, there are no long sidings on that part of the route. As we have seen elsewhere, CN will put their operation first, moreso than in the past.

I’m not opposing the idea, I just can’t reconcile it with Mr Squeeze-out-the-gravy’s platform.

- Paul

Surely Polar Bear and Churchill aren't signalled? Probably not Jonquiere or Senneterre either? Where are you getting this idea?

 

[crs1026]

Surely Polar Bear and Churchill aren't signalled? Probably not Jonquiere or Senneterre either? Where are you getting this idea?

Well, those trains run at lower speed and provide a remote service in areas where they make the best of what they have. To be worthwhile, the Northlander will need to be more of a backbone that attempts to be highway competitive, drawing higher passenger loads. So likely faster and the risk profile is greater.

No different than Windsor- Komoka or London - Silver or Coteau - Ottawa. Those lines all worked just fine for a century with timetable and train order operation, and greater train frequency..... but that standard doesn’t cut it any more. Risk appetite is changing.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Well, those trains run at lower speed and provide a remote service in areas where they make the best of what they have. To be worthwhile, the Northlander will need to be more of a backbone that attempts to be highway competitive, drawing higher passenger loads. So likely faster and the risk profile is greater.

No different than Windsor- Komoka or London - Silver or Coteau - Ottawa. Those lines all worked just fine for a century with timetable and train order operation, and greater train frequency..... but that standard doesn’t cut it any more. Risk appetite is changing.

- Paul

Doug didn't promise a high speed train. He (seemingly) promises to return "the Northlander": a dirty old GP40 and APU and whatever coaches Northland can scrape together, rattling along at 40mph or so six days a week.

 

[smallspy]

Doug didn't promise a high speed train. He (seemingly) promises to return "the Northlander": a dirty old GP40 and APU and whatever coaches Northland can scrape together, rattling along at 40mph or so six days a week.

But it wasn't 40mph - they would regularly max out the GP38-2s at their 65mph top speed. And there are stories of reaching even higher speeds when the FPs were still around.

And as Paul correctly points out, Transport Canada is really, really not keen on passenger trains in dark territory. They didn't explicitly force VIA to install CTC on those lines - but they essentially did.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[crs1026]

Doug didn't promise a high speed train. He (seemingly) promises to return "the Northlander": a dirty old GP40 and APU and whatever coaches Northland can scrape together, rattling along at 40mph or so six days a week.

And the value for money of that is..... ???

At that level of marketability, it would be cheaper to call Uber every time someone turns up to ride.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ Any guesses?

 

[micheal_can]

There is also the issue that running passenger trains over ‘dark’ (ie unsignalled) territory just isn’t acceptable anymore. The cost of signalling Gravenhurst to North Bay would be substantial. And, there are no long sidings on that part of the route. As we have seen elsewhere, CN will put their operation first, moreso than in the past.

I’m not opposing the idea, I just can’t reconcile it with Mr Squeeze-out-the-gravy’s platform.

- Paul

The line from North Bay to Washago is signaled, unless those light towers are there for a decoration.

South of Washago, it is definitely signaled.

 

[kps]

But it wasn't 40mph - they would regularly max out the GP38-2s at their 65mph top speed. And there are stories of reaching even higher speeds when the FPs were still around.

Never rode it, but I remember seeing the Trans Europe Express trainsets.

And as Paul correctly points out, Transport Canada is really, really not keen on passenger trains in dark territory. They didn't explicitly force VIA to install CTC on those lines - but they essentially did.

Then it's a win-win for Premier Ford — “I want to restore the Northlander but the Federal Liberals won't let me.”

 

[crs1026]

The line from North Bay to Washago is signaled, unless those light towers are there for a decoration.

South of Washago, it is definitely signaled.

Washago to Gravenhurst is signalled, but it’s dark north of there.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Why would Ontario Northland passengers, who now have up to 4 departures to North Bay a day, that takes only about 5 hours, look for the restoration of a much slower train, that only provided one trip a day?

Here are next Wednesday's (for example) departure from Toronto:

Compare to the most recently (2005) timetable I can find:



It might have saved an hour ... but with only one departure a day. And trains were often very late.

I'd think adding a single express bus would be more cost-effective. It's only 345 km after all.