Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

They did, but CN abandoned it in the mid-1990s. Rail was still in place north of Old Callander Rd. probably to near where the diamond was but it was badly overgrown and unusable. If any of the old connecting track still exists it would be unusable as well. Seeing as ONR put out the tender for this job, I assume it is now their property.

Earlier you said this. I know I used it while in College, and that was around the late 1990sand early 2000s.

It would not benefit CN at all. As I mentioned, since it is an ONR contract to rebuild this segment (RFQ previously posted) I am only assuming that ONR has title to the property. I don't have a employee timetable or Canadian Trackside Guide but assume that CN property ends at the hard barrier just short (south) of the crossing of Old Callander Rd. CN does not operate north of North Bay and ONR (freight) doesn't operate south of it. Cars are interchanged and respective trains operated by ONR, CN and OVR and built and broken in their adjacent yards.

I stand to be corrected by I'm not aware that the CN Newmarket Sub ever had CTC; I know the ONR didn't. I believe both at one time had Automatic Block Systems but they are now dark and turned and as far as I know, both territories operate under an Occupancy Control System. I don't know if any signaling changes are in the cards because of the return of passenger service. Several VIA trains operate in 'dark territory'.


I don't know either; I am just assuming the connection was in place when the last Northlander operated.

 

[Bordercollie]

Earlier you said this. I know I used it while in College, and that was around the late 1990sand early 2000s.

Isn't there a rule about passenger trains operating in dark territory,?

 

[smallspy]

Isn't there a rule about passenger trains operating in dark territory,?

No. There is a guidance about it, and TC is really not happy about doing it. But they will not prevent it.

Dan

 

[Bordercollie]

No. There is a guidance about it, and TC is really not happy about doing it. But they will not prevent it.

Dan

For two daily trains would it be worth installing CTC?

 

[micheal_can]

As I understand it, all trains must get clearance before proceeding. That clearance means no meets, unless otherwise indicated. IIRC the line does have lights, so it could work based off of those too, if they reactivate them.

 

[Bordercollie]

As I understand it, all trains must get clearance before proceeding. That clearance means no meets, unless otherwise indicated. IIRC the line does have lights, so it could work based off of those too, if they reactivate them.

Block signals? Tokens?

 

[micheal_can]

Block signals? Tokens?

They call on the radio. The person then tells them where they are clear to.

 

[Bordercollie]

They call on the radio. The person then tells them where they are clear to.

But the dispatcher can't see where the other trains are. How do you know that the incoming train stopped at the light ahead?

 

[lenaitch]

The railroaders can probably do a better job but, very basically, under OCS a train cannot enter into or move within a section of track without a specific set of permissions from a rail controller (the US uses a similar system called Track Warrant Control). It the newer version of written train orders being delivered to a crew by a section operator.

As far as I know, the ONR - and possibly the CN Newmarket sub - used to have Automatic Block Signals, but I cannot adequately explain how the two systems worked together. The train still needs permission to occupy a section of track.

I think it would be much more than a matter of reactivating the signals to restore the ABS. The entire circuitry has been abandoned for many years. For the low traffic on the lines, even though some of it will be passenger, I doubt it is worth the significant cost to install CTC. VIA routes like Churchill, northern Quebec and possibly parts of the Ocean operate in non-CTC territory.

But the dispatcher can't see where the other trains are. How do you know that the incoming train stopped at the light ahead?

The dispatcher/controller knows what conflicts might exist (other trains, work crews, etc.) because they gave them permission to be there. There are no signal lights.

 

[dowlingm]

No. There is a guidance about it, and TC is really not happy about doing it. But they will not prevent it.

Dan

I know in the US there is a 59mph restriction in dark territory (https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/2006/r06h0013/r06h0013.html#) but I thought I read someone say that one of the intentions behind VIA’s co-funding the signalling of the Kitchener-London track was to permit higher operating speed. Maybe that was putting two and two together and making five?

 

[dowlingm]

It would not benefit CN at all. As I mentioned, since it is an ONR contract to rebuild this segment (RFQ previously posted) I am only assuming that ONR has title to the property. I don't have a employee timetable or Canadian Trackside Guide but assume that CN property ends at the hard barrier just short (south) of the crossing of Old Callander Rd.

Trackside Guide: Station names ALL CAPS

Newmarket
223.0 main track ends
225.2 switch to ONR yard
225.7 TRANSFER, Connection with ONR
226.44 End of track

Temagami
0.0 NORTH BAY YARD
0.65 Crossing of CN Newmarket Sub
1.6 NORTH BAY
Footnote: Joint CN-ONR Trackage Mile 0.8-Mile 1.7

 

[lenaitch]

Trackside Guide: Station names ALL CAPS

Newmarket
223.0 main track ends
225.2 switch to ONR yard
225.7 TRANSFER, Connection with ONR
226.44 End of track

Temagami
0.0 NORTH BAY YARD
0.65 Crossing of CN Newmarket Sub
1.6 NORTH BAY
Footnote: Joint CN-ONR Trackage Mile 0.8-Mile 1.7

I suspect it is a little out-of-date since there is no ONR-CN crossing and the distance to the CN end-of-track corresponds closer to where the diamond used to be rather than the current EOT.

Interesting about the joint trackage. That would extend past the current ONT passenger (bus only right now). I wonder what that was about.

 

[crs1026]

^Going back to UCRS newsletters from 1989-90, and a 1993 CN ETT, the new ONR station opened Aug 29 1990. From that point, the Northlander ran along the Newmarket Sub (going northwards) to Dykstra, which was then the diamond between the (now-being refurbished remnant of the ) CN Newmarket Sub and the ONR Temagami Sub. Then it turned right (north to northeast) onto the ONR and to the ONR station.

Previously to that, the Northlander continued west along the (now abandoned) Newmarket Sub to the CNR station, and then reversed back to Dykstra to continue northwards.

CN freights would have used the connecting track at Transfer to access the ONR yard.

A 1979 ONR ETT is online here, showing CTC governing the portion from (old) CN North Bay to Dykstra, which was called Staffend on the ONR part of the route..

It probably doesn't matter who owns that short stretch of the Newmarket that is being refurbished.... one would hope that ONR now owns it, but if it's still CN territory there is no conflict with any CN movements so I'm sure CN would not oppose or unduly complicate its refurbishment and use by ONR.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

Interesting. Thanks.

A 1979 ONR ETT is online here, showing CTC governing the portion from (old) CN North Bay to Dykstra, which was called Staffend on the ONR part of the route..

I clearly remember wayside signs at Gravenhurst back in the 1970s showing 'CTC Ends/Begins' for approaching or leaving Washago, so I just assumed there was no CTC north of there (except perhaps approaching Capreol).

 

[crs1026]

I clearly remember wayside signs at Gravenhurst back in the 1970s showing 'CTC Ends/Begins' for approaching or leaving Washago, so I just assumed there was no CTC north of there (except perhaps approaching Capreol).

"CTC" may be a bit extravagant, although it is referred to as such in ONR employee timetables. To be more accurate, the diamond between ONR and CN at Dykstra was an interlocking plant controlled by the CN Operator at North Bay, who also had control of some switches, with associated signals in the zone between it and the CN station. The jurisdiction over tracks between these points was split between ONR and CN, with the closest track to the depot being an ONR track (but used at times by CN passenger trains to make their station stops).

Some tracks around North Bay had ABS signals which would have been affected by the interlocking as well.

You are correct that CTC on the Newmarket Sub ended at Gravenhurst, this was cut back to Washago a decade or so ago.

- Paul