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Ontario Line North of Eglinton (was Relief Line North) (Speculation)

Part of me thinks the best idea is to build a wye with future tracks heading north, and have the subway interline with the Sheppard Subway. If RLN ever needs to go Northbound, there's no doubt that Sheppard will have to, at this point, go east, so extending both lines at around the same time would make complete sense. With an interline (and a future Sheppard West Subway), Relief Line trains can be stored at Wilson, and a new yard for Line 1 can be built elsewhere (Potentially an expanded Wilson can accommodate trains from both lines, especially considering the fact that Downsview Airport is getting smaller and smaller and it's the best land to build a yard), or a new yard can be built near HWY 407 along an extended Yonge and Spadina subway.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Maybe when the Relief Line reaches Sheppard (Consumers Road Station?), it splits into two branches. Branch B continues north under Victoria Park Avenue to the sprawl of Markham, while Branch B follows the "old" Line 4 Sheppard to Yonge-Sheppard Station and further west to Sheppard West Station.
Click to expand...

This is really interesting, because it addresses the ridership needs of both lines. With RL eventually running with 6 cars at 2 minute frequencies, Sheppard with the extension would see huge benefits from longer cars and increased headways, while Markham sees subway service at a reduced level as well.

If I remember correctly, the Environmental Project Report states somewhere that the line will initially be using 4 car trains (unknown section), with platforms at length for future 7 car trains (Section 1.3.3). It would be interesting to see how this could be used in the future.
 
Other subway/metro systems have branch lines, so why not Toronto.

MARTA_Rail_Map.jpg

From link.
 
micheal_can said:
The problem you run into is Toronto has so little transit for so many riders that spitting the service could mean even more fuller trains.
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That only exists on the Yonge/University lines, which is why you cannot branch the subway at Sheppard Yonge, or at St George. You also wouldn't want to branch lines downtown. If you're going to branch, do it in the suburbs, like every other developed city. London does it on the Northern, District and Metropolitan, New York does it on all it's major subway lines with the exception of the Canarsie, Nassau,Flushing, and Crosstown lines, Tokyo does it with the Marunouchi line （丸ノ内線), BART is built on this design, and the LA Metro also follows this principle.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Maybe when the Relief Line reaches Sheppard (Consumers Road Station?), it splits into two branches. Branch B continues north under Victoria Park Avenue to the sprawl of Markham, while Branch B follows the "old" Line 4 Sheppard to Yonge-Sheppard Station and further west to Sheppard West Station.
Click to expand...

Streety McCarface said:
That only exists on the Yonge/University lines, which is why you cannot branch the subway at Sheppard Yonge, or at St George. You also wouldn't want to branch lines downtown. If you're going to branch, do it in the suburbs, like every other developed city. London does it on the Northern, District and Metropolitan, New York does it on all it's major subway lines with the exception of the Canarsie, Nassau,Flushing, and Crosstown lines, Tokyo does it with the Marunouchi line （丸ノ内線), BART is built on this design, and the LA Metro also follows this principle.
Click to expand...

Once the north of Sheppard line extension(s) are built, the DRL may be too congested to allow that.
 
micheal_can said:
Once the north of Sheppard line extension(s) are built, the DRL may be too congested to allow that.
Click to expand...
I honestly highly doubt that. Even if it attracts 1/3 of Yonge Ridership (450K PPD), 1/3 of Danforth Ridership (250K PPD), 50% of Sheppard Ridership (50K PPD), and 200% of Don mills Ridership (40K PPD), that only sums up to around 300K Passengers/Day, and there's a good chance that the majority of that traffic will be south of Bloor Street. North of Bloor Street, RLN will likely have around 220K PPD, similar to the Spadina Line Before the TYSSE. Given that the Yonge Line can operate at 450K PPD, spurring it out to Markham to take in an additional 50-100K Passengers seems completely fine. It would be like a TYSSE for the Relief Line.
 
Streety McCarface said:
I honestly highly doubt that. Even if it attracts 1/3 of Yonge Ridership (450K PPD), 1/3 of Danforth Ridership (250K PPD), 50% of Sheppard Ridership (50K PPD), and 200% of Don mills Ridership (40K PPD), that only sums up to around 300K Passengers/Day, and there's a good chance that the majority of that traffic will be south of Bloor Street. North of Bloor Street, RLN will likely have around 220K PPD, similar to the Spadina Line Before the TYSSE. Given that the Yonge Line can operate at 450K PPD, spurring it out to Markham to take in an additional 50-100K Passengers seems completely fine. It would be like a TYSSE for the Relief Line.
Click to expand...

Your numbers are for now. How long has Yonge needed a relief? What were the numbers of those areas then?
 
Streety McCarface said:
I honestly highly doubt that. Even if it attracts 1/3 of Yonge Ridership (450K PPD), 1/3 of Danforth Ridership (250K PPD), 50% of Sheppard Ridership (50K PPD), and 200% of Don mills Ridership (40K PPD), that only sums up to around 300K Passengers/Day, and there's a good chance that the majority of that traffic will be south of Bloor Street. North of Bloor Street, RLN will likely have around 220K PPD, similar to the Spadina Line Before the TYSSE. Given that the Yonge Line can operate at 450K PPD, spurring it out to Markham to take in an additional 50-100K Passengers seems completely fine. It would be like a TYSSE for the Relief Line.
Click to expand...
Also worth noting the distribution of that ridership over the course of the day.

Relief Line will only be especially busy during peak hours. During the late morning and the afternoon, the Relief Line will not be particularly busy. Which is interesting as that is a contrast to the Eglinton Crosstown, which does not have a projected sharp peak like the Relief Line, but is projected to be well-used throughout the day. In comparison to the Crosstown, the Relief Line is projected to be largely a commuter-oriented service. Of course, a disclaimer is needed as commuter patterns might change after the service is built and in place.

But, the reason I bring that up is that in terms of splitting the Relief Line into branches, it might not be feasible during peak hour service, but it could be something that is considered during non-peak hours.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Line 1: Sheppard West to St Clair West – Nightly early closures October 29 to November 1

From link.

EC-Line1.jpg



Science Fiction: If the Relief Line and Line 4 Sheppard had already merged, during the early closure of Line 1 after 11 PM this week (October 29 to November 1), they might have been able to run the Line 1 about Sheppard West Station along Line 4 Sheppard and continue south on the Relief Line.

Unfortunately, if it not real.
Click to expand...

hw621 said:
^fantasy mode warning
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Fantasy or not, these kind of built in redundancies to the network would be nice. Especially since we are playing with the same rolling stock here in Toronto.

This is why I am moderately supportive of Sheppard West extension, despite low projected ridership. (Access to Wilson Yard is another excellent reason)
 
WislaHD said:
This is why I am moderately supportive of Sheppard West extension, despite low projected ridership. (Access to Wilson Yard is another excellent reason)
Click to expand...
Access to Wilson Yard is a good reason, but the Yonge/Sheppard connection isn't designed for revenue traffic - and it was unlikely the connection at Downsview (now Sheppard West) would have been as well.
 
micheal_can said:
Your numbers are for now. How long has Yonge needed a relief? What were the numbers of those areas then?
Click to expand...

Of course none of my estimations are scientific, I don't have access to traffic models for Toronto. Yonge has only really needed relief for the past 8 or so years. Ridership has stagnated, as people choose other modes of transport. The Yonge line could continue running as is without a relief line for quite some time, but commuters would have to get used to much larger crowds. The main things the Relief Line attempts to address are safety concerns, and redundancy, things the system desperately needs.

For the new areas, given that the TYSSE seems to be attracting about 15K riders from Vaughan, I think it's fair to say that Markham would see a good 20-30K riders when ridership matures. This makes sense since the Stouffville line currently sees about 15K passengers per day, and a good portion of riders are probably heading to the Yonge line at this moment. Assuming a 30% increase in ridership, those numbers for one station seem extremely fair. For the rest of the line (Don Mills to Steeles), not much would be added to the system. The majority of the riders on this section will already be traveling into Don Mills Station, so the presence of a subway only decreases their trip time, and encourages people from other areas of the city to counter-commute.
 
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