Ontario Line Extension West of Ontario Place (Speculation)

[Midtown Urbanist]

As much as I would like the 905 and outer 416 to have good transit, the commuter rail style configurations aren't an answer to Old Toronto neighbourhoods which lack rapid transit access.

It is actually contradictory goals. Even if you opt to provide local service on those rail corridors, by providing stops in those Old Toronto neighbourhoods, you add dwell time and delay to all those 905ers and outer 416 commuters that the scheme is prioritizing in the first place. You might be able to resolve it by running local and express services, but you can only fit so many trains per hour on those tracks.

Or... You could allow RER to do its job as a commuter rail line, and build the Relief Line to do its job as a rapid transit line.

 

[nfitz]

London's Crossrail is touted to be at capacity the day it fully opens, plans are already in place to address that.

I hadn't heard about that (one way or another). To what plans do you refer - hopefully more than Chelsea-Hackney tube (aka Crossrail 2) - which wouldn't open until the 2030s, at the earliest?

Or perhaps the government can come up with a fiendish plot to completely destroy the economy, reduce employment in London, and reduce overcrowding on transit.

 

[Leo_Chan]

As much as I would like the 905 and outer 416 to have good transit, the commuter rail style configurations aren't an answer to Old Toronto neighbourhoods which lack rapid transit access.

It is actually contradictory goals. Even if you opt to provide local service on those rail corridors, by providing stops in those Old Toronto neighbourhoods, you add dwell time and delay to all those 905ers and outer 416 commuters that the scheme is prioritizing in the first place. You might be able to resolve it by running local and express services, but you can only fit so many trains per hour on those tracks.

Or... You could allow RER to do its job as a commuter rail line, and build the Relief Line to do its job as a rapid transit line.

buT thE INNer AnD ouTer SUBurbS deSerVE sUbWaYs To GEt downtowN!

 

[north-of-anything]

Since when do Old Toronto neighbourhoods lack rapid transit access? Aren't there already multiple streetcar routes that go through this area? It would be more economical and practical to maintain and improve those services... like we should be doing anyways.

What is this relief line supposed to be relieving again?

 

[nfitz]

Since when do Old Toronto neighbourhoods lack rapid transit access?

Since when were streetcar lines rapid transit? Other than that short bit along the Queensway, the speeds are generally slower than suburban buses - let alone the newer 900-series express buses.

 

[Hopkins123]

Since when do Old Toronto neighbourhoods lack rapid transit access? Aren't there already multiple streetcar routes that go through this area? It would be more economical and practical to maintain and improve those services... like we should be doing anyways.

What is this relief line supposed to be relieving again?

Certainly not the 505 Dundas west of Bathurst where the ridership peters off. The 506 could be served via a Howard Park Station near the existing terminus in High Park if ever such a connection is even needed (it's only a roughly a kilometre south of Keele Station as is). Dufferin Mall is walking distance of Dufferin Stn. Hmm... you raise a good question.

The only major destination in the whole diagonal swath of area between Spadina/Queen and Keele/Bloor that seems poorly served to me is Little Italy (epicentre being Grace/College), which would be very hard to serve directly with a subway regardless. A subway at Dufferin/College (or more likely Dufferin/Sylvan) doesn't address this well, you'd still need to rely on the streetcar to connect to it. It almost makes more sense to extend the 126 south of Bloor for quick subway access. So unless the goal of the DRL West through Brockton is to bulldoze the entire community and put up high rises, I'm just not getting this push for the more easterly alignment. At least not at the expense of Parkdale-High Park, Swansea, Humber Bay Shores, the Junction, the potential to redevelop the Stockyards and farther afield revitalize Weston.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Since when were streetcar lines rapid transit? Other than that short bit along the Queensway, the speeds are generally slower than suburban buses - let alone the newer 900-series express buses.

If the single-occupant automobiles were removed, like on the King Street Pilot, the streetcars would be more rapid.

At one time, there was a right-of-way on Dundas Street West, west of Lansdowne Avenue.

From link. Note the absence of automobiles.

When St. Clair Avenue West had streetcars first installed, they had their own right-of-way.

From link.

But then the automobile god disciples got the city to remove right-of-ways for their own use. Only took till 2010 for the right-of-way to be fully reinstalled.

 

[nfitz]

If the single-occupant automobiles were removed, like on the King Street Pilot, the streetcars would be more rapid.

The King Street pilot has not removed automobiles - even with only one occupant. It's only placed turning requirements.

It's actually a lot easier to drive along King Street to drop someone off, or even drive into a parking lot entrance by one's self, than it was before, with less traffic, and places where you can invariably find a place to stop.

It gives a false impression to say that it's removed cars - as really it's only gotten rid of cars going long distances along King. Those of us who are very familiar with it, seldom drove very far on King, because it was such a disaster, and there invariably better and faster routes!

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

buT thE INNer AnD ouTer SUBurbS deSerVE sUbWaYs To GEt downtowN!

Commuter rail for downtowners and subways for the suburbanites.

 

[syn]

Since when do Old Toronto neighbourhoods lack rapid transit access? Aren't there already multiple streetcar routes that go through this area? It would be more economical and practical to maintain and improve those services... like we should be doing anyways.

What is this relief line supposed to be relieving again?

The over capacity Yonge Line.

 

[steveintoronto]

Are you saying that the Relief Line, in its simplest form, should provide the most relief with the fastest service in the cheapest corridor and completing the network, while avoiding slowdowns from serving transit starved neighbourhoods?

Think of a highway by-pass. Does it go to every neighbourhood to do it? If the limited number of ramps service the areas it runs through, then great, but the purpose of the highway must remain ultimate.

When you take the 407, which is to bypass the 401, does it curve all over the place to service little towns and hamlets? You build secondary roads to those areas.

The prime purpose of the "Relief Line" is to relieve the present subway, from all directions, but mostly the ones furthest away that are overloading the local services for the subway.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

There are more purposes for subways than to add a bypass for existing customers. We just emphasize this on the Relief Line East because of the capacity constraints facing the Yonge Line.

 

[steveintoronto]

I hadn't heard about that (one way or another). To what plans do you refer - hopefully more than Chelsea-Hackney tube (aka Crossrail 2) - which wouldn't open until the 2030s, at the earliest?

Lengthen the trains from nine to twelve cars long. The platforms are already built in the underground stations to that length, and the stations built to be able to handle the load. It's called 'foresight'. Something completely lost on the TTC's vision of a 'Relief Line'. Crossrail 2 is based in part on the much earlier Chelsea-Hackney, but crossrail 1 is east-west, 2 is to be north-south, and now more likely to be built with the apparent cancellation of HS2.

Or perhaps the government can come up with a fiendish plot to completely destroy the economy, reduce employment in London, and reduce overcrowding on transit.

lol...oh man...don't get me started on Brexit, proof that the French and Spanish Armadas weren't necessary. Britain is quite capable of destroying herself.

The over capacity Yonge Line.

Primarily and the overcapacity of Line 2. It's just that the Yonge section of Line 1 is the worst. I take Line 2 almost daily, and do everything possible to avoid returning during evening rush. It's well over-capacity in sections, as St George Station and others attest.

As of 2016, Line 2 was running at capacity with almost 26,000 peak-hour riders.

 

[steveintoronto]

There are more purposes for subways than to add a bypass for existing customers.

lol...I give you the latest Metrolinx report! The prior claims on effectiveness as designed can barely make a business case. As soon as costs rise, it won't. And Metrolinx are still using a suspect basis for that!

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20190207/20190207_BoardMtg_ReliefLineBusinessCaseDevelopment_EN.pdf

They're still being overly-kind.

Here's the deal: There's no money. Now if the City wants to build a quaint little subway that serves only the Pape Entitlement, all fine and good. Show me the money.

Meantime, if the Province finances the entire line (also doubtful, there's no money, but for the purpose of argument, say there is) then surely! the majority of taxpayers in the 905 region financing it should benefit, let alone Torontonians already denied spots on subways due to the non-Torontonians swamping them to get downtown. It's a shitty way to get people downtown! Idiots built a subway to Vaughan, want to build one to Scarborough, some to Mississauga, some to the Moon via Pickering. That's not what subways are meant for! What's being built under Carlaw is a local needs convenience not a Relief Line.

The answer is some form of RER or Metro. Now if Toronto wants to pay for the toy train for the Pape Entitlement, go right ahead! But the Market, who will be the ones financing a line will look at the big picture, see what serves most people with the most consistent rate of return with the most efficient way to build it route-wise, and proceed accordingly.

And it won't be to cater to the Pape Entitlement. As it is, they'll have the 'highway' running through their backyards. If that's not good enough for them, let them walk. They can take a bus or streetcar to the closest station, which will be a hell of a lot closer than there's one now.

By the same logic, btw, I say let Toronto toll the DVP and the Gardiner. Let the Market determine the costs of motorist wishing for their form of entitlement too. And it's damn expensive. Get the politics out of this, and the economics into it.

The best way to serve most neighbourhoods is with bus, streetcar, lrt to the closest rapid transit station. In the case of some like King, increase the Transitway to the Humber Loop. It will intersect a number of stations along the way.

How's SmartTrack coming along?

 

[steveintoronto]

If the single-occupant automobiles were removed, like on the King Street Pilot, the streetcars would be more rapid.

At one time, there was a right-of-way on Dundas Street West, west of Lansdowne Avenue.

Fascinating! I never knew that, and had a studio for years second building south from there on Sorauren (now snotty lofts). The parapets for that track bridge are still extant, I always assumed it was for the road...really old maps show a level crossing.