OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[adma]

Er, coolcanadian, when you refer to "size and quality we can expect" through examples like this, especially,

or this

...uh, seriously? Quality?

In fact, here's the irony: of all the examples you have illustrated, the one that smacks most of genuine, authentic, non-cheezeball/non-silicone/non-Botox "quality" is this one.

God bless Raymond Moriyama.

 

[Torontovibe]

It's those HUGE big box casinos that create the isolated, alienating feeling people get while walking by a typical suburban shopping mall, which is why few people do it. Developments like this look good from the air but on the ground, it's dreadful. We have example after example, all across North America, yet somehow, a few people believe, that this one is going to be different. Why? Why is Toronto going to be different? The city is NOT building it, private developers are, and they have a proven formula for developing big box casinos. Is there anyone (over the age of 20) who thinks the private casino builders are going to change their whole way of building casinos, just because we ask them to? More than likely, they'll twist our arm or say no thanks, and head back to Vegas.

We are going to be the ones who have to do all the compromising. Grow up, people!

Aren't all those Vegas casinos ^^ made out of stucco, for god's sake? lol Is that what you call "quality"? Everywhere you turn in Vegas, it's one fake stucco disaster, after another.

 

[coolcanadian]

1. I showed Caesar's Palace as an example of size and wow-factor, which it has.

2. Bellagio is a beautiful 5-diamond resort.

I clearly said it will look and be nothing like my photos. I posted those to show examples of large projects. Caesar's is a huge complex that makes people say wow. Bellagio has an impressive fountain and is a 5 star property.

Of course I do not want to see a fake Italy or Bellagio theme here in Toronto. Did you look at my other examples?

This can be something great. Toronto is different because it is a city. Its not the Vegas Strip, Macau Strip, Atlantic City Strip, etc. Its a city. And the developers know that. This can be amazing. Wait until we see a proposal or render before you judge anything.

 

[coolcanadian]

In fact, there are many examples of Casino resorts that have a great street presence. Have you seen the Cosmopolitan?

Have you ever actually been to Las Vegas? There is a huge pedestrian life there. The streets are never empty.

This will be a huge resort, and people will be in and around it.

It will not be like Vegas because we are not Vegas. The city will probably choose the best design submitted.

 

[coolcanadian]

Why are we lucky? Are we begging for a casino?

I'd say that the casino companies are ones who are lucky, because they've struck a goldmine of 'repeat customers'.

we are lucky because we are getting a billion dollar project, giving many jobs to people, attracting many tourists, increasing our tourist diversity, getting a world class venue, etc.

 

[adma]

1. I showed Caesar's Palace as an example of size and wow-factor, which it has.

2. Bellagio is a beautiful 5-diamond resort.

I clearly said it will look and be nothing like my photos. I posted those to show examples of large projects. Caesar's is a huge complex that makes people say wow. Bellagio has an impressive fountain and is a 5 star property.

Of course I do not want to see a fake Italy or Bellagio theme here in Toronto. Did you look at my other examples?

This can be something great. Toronto is different because it is a city. Its not the Vegas Strip, Macau Strip, Atlantic City Strip, etc. Its a city. And the developers know that. This can be amazing. Wait until we see a proposal or render before you judge anything.

However, the fact remains that you're posting those examples, and calling them "beautiful", etc. That is, you may be telling us "wait and see"; but by offering those examples in such a light, you're opening yourself to be judged.

And all I can say is this: if y'all ever wonder what a 15-year-old kid would be like growing up in one of those egotistically SUV-scaled McMansions that probably replaced some lowslung postwar bungalow in Thorncrest or Lorne Park or wherever, where the parents think they have great taste because they read all about such-and-such in In Style magazine...here's your answer, in the form of coolcanadian.

 

[jn_12]

Have you ever actually been to Las Vegas? There is a huge pedestrian life there. The streets are never empty.

This will be a huge resort, and people will be in and around it.

It will not be like Vegas because we are not Vegas. The city will probably choose the best design submitted.

You're right, we're not Vegas, so why would you assume that this would work here with the level of success of something on the Vegas strip? The reason the Vegas strip is buslting with people is because 1. Vegas is a unique tourist entity in North America and (debatably) the world and 2. because there are a series of high-end no-expense spared developments in a rather small area, all of which are attractions in their own right that people want to visit. What you're suggesting is something like saying "hey we could have our own Champs Elysee if we build a monument at the end of a street" despite the fact the Champs Elysee has shopping, restaurants, the Arc de Triomphe, the Place de la Concorde, the Jardin des Tuileries and the Louvre, which all attract thousands upon thousands daily to the street. And if you want to see how that worked out, just look at University Avernue in its current form.

 

[coolcanadian]

You're right, we're not Vegas, so why would you assume that this would work here with the level of success of something on the Vegas strip? The reason the Vegas strip is buslting with people is because 1. Vegas is a unique tourist entity in North America and (debatably) the world and 2. because there are a series of high-end no-expense spared developments in a rather small area, all of which are attractions in their own right that people want to visit. What you're suggesting is something like saying "hey we could have our own Champs Elysee if we build a monument at the end of a street" despite the fact the Champs Elysee has shopping, restaurants, the Arc de Triomphe, the Place de la Concorde, the Jardin des Tuileries and the Louvre, which all attract thousands upon thousands daily to the street. And if you want to see how that worked out, just look at University Avernue in its current form.

When I say we are not Vegas, I am referring to the fact that this project will be different from Vegas projects.

However, that does not mean a 2000 room resort with shopping, nightclubs, restaurants, a casino, and convention space won't work here...

It will bring thousands of jobs to the city. The city could receive up to $75 billion per year with this project, and use that money to fund a variety of things. It would attract millions of tourists.

Only 5% of this is planned to be a casino. Even if you hate gambling, do you hate hotels, restaurants, and shows?

What if a hotel like Shangri-La of Four Season's had a small casino beside their lobby's? That wouldn't ruin the project!

This can really be something great for our city.

MGM knows that Toronto is different from Vegas. They want this to fit in with the city. They want to improve transit and use it with the city, using other options than just a car.

You are scared of change, and anything that Rob Ford likes.

This will be good for our city. And if we don't get it, we will get a small, dull, boring casino elsewhere in the region that will not attract any tourists, will not provide nearly as many jobs, and will not be something to be proud of.

And my examples of beautiful things are not always talking about the building itself. I do not want it to look like Caesar's of Bellagio. Those buildings are beautiful because of their amazing lobby's, restaurants, and rooms. The fountains of Bellagio and the size of Caesar's makes you says "wow". It's the wow-factor I'm comparing to, not the way they look. NOt their design. I think you understood my point, but you just wanted something to argue about.

The fact is, this will add jobs, attract tourists, and provide something that will be built in the area nonetheless.

 

[coolcanadian]

You seem to think every casino must be tacky, fake and ugly. These are some designs that are nicer, I think. They are not "your average casino".

I am also not saying I wan't these in Toronto, I am simply showing other styles.

 

[adma]

And my examples of beautiful things are not always talking about the building itself. I do not want it to look like Caesar's of Bellagio. Those buildings are beautiful because of their amazing lobby's, restaurants, and rooms. The fountains of Bellagio and the size of Caesar's makes you says "wow". It's the wow-factor I'm comparing to, not the way they look. NOt their design. I think you understood my point, but you just wanted something to argue about.

No. No. No. No. No. You're still calling them "beautiful". They. Are. Not. Beautiful. They. Are. Tacky. Pieces. Of. Garbage. And. They. Don't. Make. Us. Say. "Wow". They. Make. Us. Say. "Blecccchhh".

Get this into your thick 15-year-old-kid-of-tasteless-McMansion-parents skull. Beauty = design. Beauty does not = "wow" factor.

 

[Thanos]

No. No. No. No. No. You're still calling them "beautiful". They. Are. Not. Beautiful. They. Are. Tacky. Pieces. Of. Garbage. And. They. Don't. Make. Us. Say. "Wow". They. Make. Us. Say. "Blecccchhh".

Get this into your thick 15-year-old-kid-of-tasteless-McMansion-parents skull. Beauty = design. Beauty does not = "wow" factor.

Since when do you speak for the rest of the world? You are the exact reason why we have Ford as mayor.

 

[adma]

I am also not saying I wan't these in Toronto, I am simply showing other styles.

Yeah, but you're not disclaiming the garbage.

Look at it this way: by coolcanadian logic, the present Toronto City Hall might have been a landmark in its day, but its 50s/60s futurism is now looking tired, barren. Toronto needs something better--something with "wow" factor.

So, I post this as an example of "wow" factor.

And then say, "I am not saying I want this in Toronto"; like, a competition could get us a Koolhaas or Hadid or whatever. But, still: I posted that.

 

[ttk77]

I'm no proponent of casinos, nor am I vehemently against them, but I'm noticing there's an awful lot of thinking inside the box going on here. There's no one really speculating about IF we get one, how it could be designed to fit into Toronto's urban fabric while maintaining as much street level vibrancy as possible. Given the interest we've seen, it appears that these companies see potential for much profit in Toronto. I also think it's pretty clear that those giant monolithic projects just don't fit well with our urban environment. We need to figure out just how badly they want to build here, and how far they're willing to step outside their tried-and-true business model in order to turn a profit.

So here's a question for those against building the giant casino resorts pictured up-thread. How would you design a 2 to 6 billion dollar resort that would give MGM the waterfront picture postcard/visible landmark they so obviously want while still maintaining Toronto's urban vibrancy in the vicinity of the resort and throughout the core?

 

[jn_12]

When I say we are not Vegas, I am referring to the fact that this project will be different from Vegas projects.

However, that does not mean a 2000 room resort with shopping, nightclubs, restaurants, a casino, and convention space won't work here...

You basically said the Strip was busy so we'd be busy. If all those people who are supposedly filling the resort never have to leave (and why would they with all that you claim will be there) where is this supposed liveliness going to come from?

It will bring thousands of jobs to the city. The city could receive up to $75 billion per year with this project, and use that money to fund a variety of things. It would attract millions of tourists.

wait... $75 billion?!?! millions of tourists?!? You don't work in the tourism industry eh? I didn't know this casino was on par with finding the world's largest oil, diamond and gold reserves under the city. Those are delusional numbers and absolutely kill your credability. Move some decimal points around.

Only 5% of this is planned to be a casino. Even if you hate gambling, do you hate hotels, restaurants, and shows?

I do if it means that Toronto's other hotels, restaurants and shows suffer. If this thing is as successful as you say it will be, it'll be the Walmart of the tourism sector.

What if a hotel like Shangri-La of Four Season's had a small casino beside their lobby's? That wouldn't ruin the project!

I don't know what this means...

This can really be something great for our city.

Well if you think it's going to make the city $75billion I can see why you'd think that.

MGM knows that Toronto is different from Vegas. They want this to fit in with the city. They want to improve transit and use it with the city, using other options than just a car.

I guess we'll see what the proposals look like. I'm not holding my breath.

You are scared of change, and anything that Rob Ford likes.

You're right. I'm a planner and I like good planning. I have a background in tourism policy so I actually understand the city and the province's tourism sector. Rob Ford doesn't seem to understand either, so of course I don't usually like what he likes.

This will be good for our city. And if we don't get it, we will get a small, dull, boring casino elsewhere in the region that will not attract any tourists, will not provide nearly as many jobs, and will not be something to be proud of.

I'm from Niagara. I'm not proud of the casino. No one I know is proud of the casino. It provides low-paying jobs (often seasonal) to people who were making great money in the manufacturing sector. Sure people will have to work there, but are those really the types of jobs we should be striving for Toronto to add?

And my examples of beautiful things are not always talking about the building itself. I do not want it to look like Caesar's of Bellagio. Those buildings are beautiful because of their amazing lobby's, restaurants, and rooms. The fountains of Bellagio and the size of Caesar's makes you says "wow". It's the wow-factor I'm comparing to, not the way they look. NOt their design. I think you understood my point, but you just wanted something to argue about.

I'm not sure how you can be so certain that we won't get some sort of tacky building. Adam has taken this argument and run with it and has done a much better job than I have, so I'll defer this section to him.

The fact is, this will add jobs, attract tourists, and provide something that will be built in the area nonetheless.

Where are these facts you mention? Have you brought up studies done in other jurisdictions on the economic impact of new casino resorts in urban centres? Simply because you and some politicians say "it'll bring jobs and BILLIONS to the city" it doesn't mean it's true.

 

[TOareaFan]

So what if a casino will be part of it? People seem to think that a casino will ruin our city. It won't. If this is a great complex, why does it matter if there is a casino? If you don't gamble, like me, then you won't play in the casino part. Most of the gamblers from the GTA that would use this will be people who probably already went to Rama or Niagara. The tourists that come to gamble will benefit our city.

Woah....back down a bit. I was not making any judgement on casinos....in fact I was generally supportive of the notion that with the players interested here we could leverage that into a pretty good development. All I was saying is that for us to do that you have to get/have broad support for the notion of a Toronto casino....which I do not think anyone has done yet.