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Old City Hall Proposals

I think it'll be difficult to find a workable tenant for OCH. It's a very big building, all things considered. Encouraging a smaller museum or gallery to take it over could end up just weighing them down. Ideally the space would go to a new gallery, but with MoCCA moving and a potential Mirvish Gallery I can't see where the collection will come from.

The interior layout isn't conducive to a library at all IMO.

I'm also skeptical of a "Toronto Museum." Even in very interesting cities like London these municipal museums are pretty boring. As a general rule, I think people should learn about a city through exploring it. Trying to condense it into a museum seems pointless.

Maybe something educational? The layout seems conducive to classrooms and lecture spaces. Ryerson isn't far away. A graduate or professional faculty would fit in well.
 
At the Government Management Committee today, pretty much everyone other than Councillor Ford shot down the idea of using Old City Hall for anything other than civic purposes…

but then he along with all members voted in favour of replacing the recommendations that retail go into the space with recommendations for public consultations over the next couple of years which could culminate in a design competition for what to do with the interiors. A City of Toronto museum is uppermost in the councillors minds for the moment, but it was brought up that the music industry here is still looking for a museum as well, and that's a potentially complementary function for some of the space.

So, the retail plans are dead for now. Council to vote on the new recommendations (wording coming soon) at their next meeting.

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interchange42 said:
At the Government Management Committee today, pretty much everyone other than Councillor Ford shot down the idea of using Old City Hall for anything other than civic purposes…

but then he along with all members voted in favour of replacing the recommendations that retail go into the space with recommendations for public consultations over the next couple of years which could culminate in a design competition for what to do with the interiors.

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I just think he wanted the issue to crop up again in time for his election campaign.

AoD
 
This will need to be somewhat of a 'house of museums' to sustain a site of these dimensions.... so why not a combination such as:

1. a home for a museum of Toronto. Very interactive, visually demonstrating the layers of growth over time from military garrison to modern city. Also providing a home for iconic artifacts and documents etc.

2. A permanent collection that ties into the Walk of Fame. In other words this museum collection would pretty much celebrate excellence in all fields of performance by Canadians including music, film, tv, media and athletics.

3. A music hall of fame. This idea is popular and has been tossed around for decades. Why not a home for the Junos in Toronto??

The critical mass of several collections would be a benefit to each one. Also, exhibit space, event space and a high-end restaurant etc could be added, all of which would compliment the 'house of museums' theme and expand the functionality beyond typical museum hours.
 
Armour said:
Parks like Clarence Park are puny and can barely service anyone. I'm not saying that there is no value in parkettes, but we need much larger green spaces. Even the park I have envisioned is smaller the what I would like. It would be nice to see a massive park about twice the size as Trinity Bellwoods, somewhere in the core. Remember, we need to take into account the future growth of the city. How many thousands more people will be living downtown in 10, 20, 30 years? Pocket parks won't suffice forever.
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Don Valley/Riverdale? Toronto Island?

There are very few cities that have a large park right next to the downtown (Boston is the only one I can think of but Boston Commons isn't even that massive. Hyde Park in the UK is a fair distance from the City)

Toronto has a huge amount of green space compared to a lot of other cities. And a good subway/streetcar system to get to it from downtown. And we are building more in the shoulders (east end of Ontario Place, East Queens Quay, etc). If someone wants to live near the parks they will do so (by having a longer commute). If they want to live near work they will do so. We don't live in this SimCity utopia where we can spend hundreds of millions on fantasy projects (which will by the way drive up prices and create more of a wealth divide).

Old City Hall is a great space...and adding more pedestrian-friendly design to the east and north of it will connect a shopping district to NPS...and potentially make this are much more appealing to tourists and residents alike. What we do with Old City Hall should reflect this. But in a cost friendly and realistic manner (i.e. 1st floor restaurants, upper floors city hall offices or Ryerson University). Not a grand scheme that will never fly (just like a grand scheme for a huge park)
 
muller877 said:
Don Valley/Riverdale? Toronto Island?

There are very few cities that have a large park right next to the downtown (Boston is the only one I can think of but Boston Commons isn't even that massive. Hyde Park in the UK is a fair distance from the City)

Toronto has a huge amount of green space compared to a lot of other cities. And a good subway/streetcar system to get to it from downtown. And we are building more in the shoulders (east end of Ontario Place, East Queens Quay, etc). If someone wants to live near the parks they will do so (by having a longer commute). If they want to live near work they will do so. We don't live in this SimCity utopia where we can spend hundreds of millions on fantasy projects (which will by the way drive up prices and create more of a wealth divide).
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Well, both Don Valley and the Islands are what I'd call residual spaces - spaces that were left as "parkland" (note that even the Don Valley wasn't that park like, considering the industrial changes to the Lower Don and the Don Valley Brickworks, for example) because you can't really build anything on it (or too inconvenient to use it intensely). As to examples elsewhere - Chicago (Millenium Park), NYC (self-evident), Berlin (Tiergarten), etc. It wasn't like Toronto didn't plan for large green spaces - just that poor planning had lead to these supposed spaces to become development space (case in point, the original waterfront on Front Street).

AoD
 
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muller877 said:
Don Valley/Riverdale? Toronto Island?

There are very few cities that have a large park right next to the downtown (Boston is the only one I can think of but Boston Commons isn't even that massive. Hyde Park in the UK is a fair distance from the City)
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Stanley Park in Vancouver? Mount Royal Park in Montreal (Designed by Olmsted!)... all the ones in the U.S. mentioned by AoD above. I'm just not sure I would agree with you and in fact I'm having a hard time trying to think of a decent urban city that doesn't have a show piece green space.


muller877 said:
Old City Hall is a great space...and adding more pedestrian-friendly design to the east and north of it will connect a shopping district to NPS...and potentially make this are much more appealing to tourists and residents alike. What we do with Old City Hall should reflect this. But in a cost friendly and realistic manner (i.e. 1st floor restaurants, upper floors city hall offices or Ryerson University). Not a grand scheme that will never fly (just like a grand scheme for a huge park)
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No thanks. If we lack the vision to honour this site then we should leave it as is, some future generation will figure it out. I'd be embarrassed to see it as a mall.
 
Getting seriously OT - but here is a very good example of plans that went awry - the original Park Lot 5 spanning Moss Park all the way to Homewood:

http://torontofamilyhistory.org/simcoesgentry/5/allan-gardens

In fact the defacto pattern in Toronto is calling something a park lot and then gradually sell the it off piece by piece until you're left with non-contiguous pieces.

AoD
 
W. K. Lis said:
The Old City Hall would be a good venue for a Civil Wedding Chamber.
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But the current one has this great '80's vibe! http://marryus.org/gallery/gallery.html
Actually that's a great idea.

You need reasons for people to go and visit the building. Just saying it's open will mean a few people may go and see it once but what's the point about seeing it again? And you need a rationale for everyone else to see it.

So what do you do to encourage people to get into this building?

A wedding/conference facility is a great idea (a quainter version of Arcadia Court across the street). Use one of the courts that has some old-world charm for the wedding chapel. And a bunch of the other ones can be converted into event spaces for dinner/receptions.

But this is a private enterprise. The comments above sound like quite a few people would not want this.
 
Nope it doesn't have to be a "private" enterprise - at least in terms of the rental of the space. In any case though, is turning it into a limited access conference facility the best way to guarantee public access, especially public access beyond a one-off manner?

I think a mix of public library, gallery space, city offices, tourist information centre and selective themed retail/dining might be the best option.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
What the city "needs" (perhaps want is a better phrase) isn't a merely large park - but a huge, multi-block one in the core along the lines Hyde Park, Boston Commons, etc. Little dinky ones won't really do. Mind you, that ship has sailed a long, long time ago - but it is a very, very tempting thought exercise to level the block between Allan Gardens and Moss Park.

AoD
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one stone, two birds. I imagine that scenario many times.

Honestly, I am tired of this "look, Toronto has so many parks and open space" argument in desperate denial of a problem. I would do that right away if I were a dictator, might as well extend it to Parliament between Queen and Dundas. Yes, we have dozens of super tiny green space all around town, but they create no atmosphere, no cohesion, and definitely not much of a design for the residents.

Sorry I am going to use Shanghai as an example too - even a congested highrise city like Shanghai has a large park right in the middle of the city centre, 1km long and 600m wide, right next to another one (half of its size). I am sorry, our little green spaces spread across downtown none of which is big enough for a 10 minutes walk inside are just not enough, especially when the population is likely to double in the next decade.

Armour said:
Parks like Clarence Park are puny and can barely service anyone. I'm not saying that there is no value in parkettes, but we need much larger green spaces. Even the park I have envisioned is smaller the what I would like. It would be nice to see a massive park about twice the size as Trinity Bellwoods, somewhere in the core. Remember, we need to take into account the future growth of the city. How many thousands more people will be living downtown in 10, 20, 30 years? Pocket parks won't suffice forever.
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Completely agree.
Enough with the parkettes. They are useless (except for statistics purposes). Add tiny little new green spaces is a waste of time.
 
Parkettes aren't useless and we shouldn't stop building them, but we do need some heftier green space to service the evergrowing core. The suburbs have them in abundance, but they're barely utilized, for many reasons (residents already have large yards; lack of benches; basically no attractions if you're beyond the age of twelve).
 
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