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New Transit Funding Sources

Eglinton is a bit of a moving target when it comes to that though, because you have 2 sections that would qualify (the tunnel and the SRT refurb), but one that doesn't (Eglinton East). It's two metro lines linked by a non-Metro line, which I think is where the confusion comes in.

Now, if Metrolinx/the TTC make the sensible choice and elevate Eglinton East, then there would be no doubt that all of Eglinton would qualify.

but...again, the initial discussion was not if it was a metro...is it rapid transit. If I look at the term "rapid transit" it is a noun "transit" modified by the word rapid. So if we look at the base transit......buses...then surely two metro lines linked by a non-metro (but still not a bus) line would be more fast (faster) than a bus on the same route....mmmmm....do we have another word for more fast? I know...rapid! So yes, in my mind, Eglinton is Rapid Transit! Which, unless my reading skills are failing, is what the original discussion was around.

I also think you have to take the defitinition of RT in the context of the city/town in which you are discussing. So, my home town of Brampton has a pretty decent (IMO) bus system for a city of its size and stage of development. When it introduced its 3 Zum lines and referred to them as BRT I took no offense. The Zum lines move people more rapidly than the alternative buses and, frankly, it is the appropriate level of spend/investment in the context of Brampton. If the TTC were to propose a copy of Zum on, say, Eglinton, I don't know how much faster it would be than regular buses and in a city which has subways and streetcars that run separated from traffic, I would have a hard time describing "Zum-Eglinton" as rapid transit at all.

That would mean (to refer back to a comment that someone made) to me that while the Edmonton line is not a "metro" it is RT.
 
but...again, the initial discussion was not if it was a metro...is it rapid transit. If I look at the term "rapid transit" it is a noun "transit" modified by the word rapid. So if we look at the base transit......buses...then surely two metro lines linked by a non-metro (but still not a bus) line would be more fast (faster) than a bus on the same route....mmmmm....do we have another word for more fast? I know...rapid! So yes, in my mind, Eglinton is Rapid Transit! Which, unless my reading skills are failing, is what the original discussion was around.

I also think you have to take the defitinition of RT in the context of the city/town in which you are discussing. So, my home town of Brampton has a pretty decent (IMO) bus system for a city of its size and stage of development. When it introduced its 3 Zum lines and referred to them as BRT I took no offense. The Zum lines move people more rapidly than the alternative buses and, frankly, it is the appropriate level of spend/investment in the context of Brampton. If the TTC were to propose a copy of Zum on, say, Eglinton, I don't know how much faster it would be than regular buses and in a city which has subways and streetcars that run separated from traffic, I would have a hard time describing "Zum-Eglinton" as rapid transit at all.

That would mean (to refer back to a comment that someone made) to me that while the Edmonton line is not a "metro" it is RT.

I know, but the initial discussion was the stat that I raised about after the opening of the Evergreen Line, Vancouver will have the largest system in Canada. In that context, rapid transit is taken to mean grade-separated, rail-based transit. I know it isn't the technical definition, but I'm sure we can all see the distinction.

In my mind, there are 4 levels of Rapid Transit. The discussion specifically around the longest RT system was referencing JUST the systems in category #2:

1) Regional Rail (be it electrified express, or diesel). Examples include GO, Metro North, West Coast Express.

2) Primary Rapid Transit (HRT Subway/Elevated, ICTS, LRT Subway/Elevated).

3) Secondary Rapid Transit (At-grade LRT, grade-separated BRT, shoulder lane BRT). Examples include the Finch West LRT, Calgary C-Train, Ottawa Transitway.

4) Tertiary Rapid Transit (Express buses, BRT Light). Examples include Züm, TTC Rockets.

All of those technically qualify as Rapid Transit, but they have widely varying degrees of speed, frequency, stop distance, capacity, and obviously technology.
 
I know, but the initial discussion was the stat that I raised about after the opening of the Evergreen Line, Vancouver will have the largest system in Canada. In that context, rapid transit is taken to mean grade-separated, rail-based transit. I know it isn't the technical definition, but I'm sure we can all see the distinction.

In my mind, there are 4 levels of Rapid Transit. The discussion specifically around the longest RT system was referencing JUST the systems in category #2:

1) Regional Rail (be it electrified express, or diesel). Examples include GO, Metro North, West Coast Express.

2) Primary Rapid Transit (HRT Subway/Elevated, ICTS, LRT Subway/Elevated).

3) Secondary Rapid Transit (At-grade LRT, grade-separated BRT, shoulder lane BRT). Examples include the Finch West LRT, Calgary C-Train, Ottawa Transitway.

4) Tertiary Rapid Transit (Express buses, BRT Light). Examples include Züm, TTC Rockets.

All of those technically qualify as Rapid Transit, but they have widely varying degrees of speed, frequency, stop distance, capacity, and obviously technology.

I guess my reading skills are failing ( ;) ), then, because I saw nothing in the original discussion that limited the context to the bolded part above.....carry on!
 
Eglinton is a bit of a moving target when it comes to that though, because you have 2 sections that would qualify (the tunnel and the SRT refurb), but one that doesn't (Eglinton East). It's two metro lines linked by a non-Metro line, which I think is where the confusion comes in.

Should St. Clair and Spadina count as Metro. If you consider the portion more than 30m from each stop, the line is fully grade separated. So that means that about half the length or more can count as Metro.

Now, if Metrolinx/the TTC make the sensible choice and elevate Eglinton East, then there would be no doubt that all of Eglinton would qualify.

Sadly, I think there is little chance of any of the current players (TTC, Metrolinx, Toronto Council, Provincial Liberals) being sensible.
 
2) Primary Rapid Transit (HRT Subway/Elevated, ICTS, LRT Subway/Elevated).

All of those technically qualify as Rapid Transit, but they have widely varying degrees of speed, frequency, stop distance, capacity, and obviously technology.

The thing that separates those in the Primary Rapid Transit category is consistency. Although delays are always possible with any transportation, the biggest advantage of grade-separated transit is the consistency due to the lack of car and pedestrian ability to block the transit vehicle path.
 
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The thing that separates those in the Primary Rapid Transit category is consistency. Although delays are always possible with any transportation, the biggest advantage of grade-separated transit is the consistency due to the lack of car and pedestrian ability to block the transit vehicle path.

That is very true. There is a much higher degree of reliability with grade-separated rapid transit. Unless there's a problem on the line (emergency at platform or track level, problem with tracks, etc), that if the train says it'll be there in 3 minutes, it'll be there in 3 minutes. At-grade LRT doesn't have that same reliability. If a car stalls in the middle of an intersection, the line is screwed. There's a much larger degree of uncertainty.
 
Come on kids, we've been thru this before.

Technology is irrelevant as is spacing, capacity etc. All Metro/subway lines in the world whether they be heavy rail, LRT, SkyTrain, monorail, or maglev have one thing in common.................they can all be , hypothetically, run automatically. One itsy-bitsy little crossing means it is NOT a Metro/subway.
 
Maybe a non-profit consortium of business interests that actively lobbies for improvements throughout the city could act as a push to get things done.

Kind of like how London First does: http://londonfirst.co.uk

We are a non-profit organisation with the mission to make London the best city in the world in which to do business. We aim to influence national and local government policies and investment decisions to support London’s global competitiveness.
 
Looks like Tim Hudak has been reading Rob Ford's Book of Crazy again:

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford is often described as having lost control of transit planning, but he certainly has an ally in provincial Progressive Conservative leader Tim Hudak. Over lunch at the Toronto Region Board of Trade, Hudak laid out a picture of Toronto that could have been lifted more or less wholesale from Ford’s 2010 campaign platform.

The summary version: Toronto is a city in decline, we need to build subways, and we can’t even think about raising public money for them until we root out waste in government.

The first few minutes of Hudak’s speech were devoted to painting a rather grim picture of a Toronto that, he said, was losing its footing as a top North American city. It was fairly standard stuff from an opposition party leader, making the case that most of all what we need is change. Also familiar: Hudak’s ideas about transit, many of which he introduced in a white paper released in October 2012.

Before we do anything else, Hudak says, government needs to get more efficient, rein in spending, and pay down debt. He didn’t rule out new revenue tools for transit (such as road tolls or congestion charges) entirely, but he said we can’t start with them, either. Though Metrolinx is in the middle of public consultation on new revenue tools already, and will be releasing its recommendations on which tools are best in June, Hudak said today that “before we can go ask taxpayers for one more dollar provincial leaders need to show they have the budget under control…root out the waste.â€

Hudak also reiterated his belief that “we have too many backseat drivers†involved in shaping Toronto’s transit future. It is therefore “time for the province to grab the wheelâ€: Hudak wants to upload subways and LRT lines to the province, to be managed by Metrolinx.

Before he had even finished his speech, TTC Chair Karen Stintz (Ward 16, Eglinton-Lawrence) was on Twitter, raising concerns about that “cherry-picking†approach to management. When Hudak released the white paper last year she expressed her strong view that such uploading would leave Toronto with a fragmented transit system that couldn’t provide cohesive service to riders.

Another idea championed by both Ford and Hudak: focusing on subways. Today Hudak maintained that we should build one to Richmond Hill and another across Scarborough (so it would gain full-fledged citizenship in Toronto, he said). “Subway lines are that economic spine,†Hudak said. “You can’t build that kind of development on a bus or streetcar.†Stintz, again on Twitter, pointed out that adding more riders to the Yonge line (which a Richmond Hill extension would do) is simply impossible until we build a downtown relief line to improve capacity at Bloor-Yonge station and south—something which was notably absent from Hudak’s speech.

As for paying for it all? “I look forward to your advice as to how we best do that,†Hudak said, while repeating that eliminating waste must come first.

The speech was met with tepid applause, and speaking to reporters afterwards Board of Trade CEO Carol Wilding said that while her organization agrees that rooting out waste is important, they also were convinced that we can’t wait for years of efficiency studies before committing to new revenue tools for transit. We need those tools no matter what, she reiterated, and we need to push forward on both fronts at once. “It can’t be sequential.â€

Source: http://torontoist.com/2013/02/tim-h...ways-eager-for-advice-on-how-to-pay-for-them/
 
Mr. Hudak could solve the Yonge capacity problem by opening the extension to Richmond Hill - heck, why not Newmarket? - and then strategically closing stations like Eglinton, Davisville, St. Clair, Bloor, Wellesley, College, and Dundas, where the wrong sort of people tend to get on and off. This would free up capacity for, well, the right sort. After all, there are buses and cabs for the other people.
 
I love how he complains about all that ever happens is political gridlock on transit, but then comes in to propose ANOTHER NEW PLAN. I see irony written all over that...
 

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