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New Cameras Catch Murderer

Just curious, but for those of you who do not oppose cameras in public spaces, why would you not approve of cameras in the work place?

I don't have problems with cameras in the work place. Work is a public place. To me the more important thing is that if a video can be used in a court case to convict or prove wrongdoing the defense should have equal access to video tapes to prove innocence.
 
With security passes, my employer knows when I arrive in the morning, when and how many times a day I go to the bathroom, what other floors I visit, what departments I visit on them, in addition to what websites I visit and who and when and what I email. It's all fine. There is no expectation of privacy at the office, or on a public street.
 
Re: right to privacy at work and in public places: A security pass isn't the same thing as a camera. Though you don't care if your employer knows when you go to the bathroom, I suspect you would care if the doors were removed and you were videotaped as you sat having a bowel movement. Yet you wouldn't be doing anything illegal, and you wouldn't have anything "to be ashamed of" - as people keep saying around here.
 
Does anyone have limits on how much they are willing to be watched? When I am on the streets I assume I am being casually observed by others. With cameras there is a sense that a crime is being awaited by this panopticon observation.

As for the alleged killer being "caught" through the use of a surveillance camera,the victim is still quite dead.
 
I agree with Urban Shocker. The post title was my little attempt at a Sun headline. While I don't mind the existence of cameras in some places, including high-crime areas, I think that their overuse is quite dangerous. I might even like to see cameras recording, but requiring warrants to actually look at the videotape. Of course, that would be a pretty cumbersome process so there'd have to be some kind of accelerated warrant system, but you get what I mean.
 
Babel, if you shat in the street people would watch you, because it's public. There's no difference between being observed by eyes than being observed by a camera. If you want to keep things in private, do them in private. There is no privacy in the street.
 
I suspect you would care if the doors were removed and you were videotaped as you sat having a bowel movement.

But the reason there are doors on stalls is that there is an expectation of privacy in a washroom stall. There is no expectation of privacy in most workplace settings except in environments where people are sworn to protect client confidentiality or classified discussions are taking place. I don't feel watched when a camera is pointing at me. Nobody would watch all the monitors at one time and if someone is acually watching me walk along a sidewalk I would either feel sorry for them because they must be bored out of their skull, or happy they are replaying tapes trying to solve a crime that I may have been a victim of.
 
cameras are useless unless there is live monitoring. and what if the criminal is wearing a mask? i'd rather have more police on the street, on foot, on bikes or horses who can help me if i'm in trouble. and cameras don't prevent crimes sometimes, they just relocate them.
 
I would assume that the majority of us are not criminals, yet we all need watching.
 
"New Cameras Catch Murderer"

The cameras which were responsible for catching the murderer are not the ones just installed as part of the new surveillance program.


I've spent the last few years fighting the violations of our civil liberties since 9-11. I have to say I don't find this issue high on my priority list. Without these types of cameras, the murderer wouldn't likely have been caught. Fewer cameras and more security personnel is definitely not the answer; it is simply physically impossible to police everywhere at once, and if you know the Xerox Centre and the Hayden TTC exit at Yonge/Bloor, more policing wouldn't have prevented this.

If you're doing nothing wrong in public, you should have nothing to fear.

I'm not buying any argument that since there are homeless people, the streets become their homes and private places.
 
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Always under surveillance

More surveillance cameras have been installed in Toronto in a $2 million pilot project to fight crime – but is it all just optics?

by Francine Kopun
May 5, 2007

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/210722


Look up, way up, you can't see them unless you do. The new Toronto police cameras are fitted high on lampposts and traffic signal poles – the better to see you with, my dear.

They went in with barely a peep of protest, 13 cameras in four neighbourhoods: The Entertainment District, Jane and Finch, and two east Toronto communities.

The lenses are large and round and hang from big white boxes emblazoned with the word "Police." The lenses look more like lights than cameras, but make no mistake, they're watching you. Not that people seem to mind.

"Being filmed isn't anything new," said Brittany Campbell, 17, a high school student standing by the Chapters store at John St. and Richmond St. W., across the street from one of the cameras.

Perhaps the most surprising thing about the cameras was not that they were installed, nor that they went in the same week that five surveillance cameras from two security networks captured a suspect leaving the scene of a murder at Bloor and Yonge Sts., leading to his arrest. No, the most striking thing about the installation of Toronto Police cameras may be the lack of public outcry.

There was a time, not so long ago, that Canada's privacy commissioner was so concerned about the trend, he sued the RCMP in Kelowna, B.C., to prevent them from operating a surveillance camera in a park. This week, even the Canadian Civil Liberties Association had nothing to say on the issue.

Where are the protesters denouncing the march toward a future like the one George Orwell described in 1984, where citizens are tracked everywhere they go, even in their own homes, their very thoughts monitored for compliance with the ruling party?

Perhaps they're at home watching television, where grainy recorded images of suspects caught on surveillance cameras have become a news staple. Three times in the past month, suspects have been arrested after their recorded images were released to the media, according to Mark Pugash, a Toronto Police Service spokesman.

"We've had cases where within an hour of putting out the picture, the suspect calls his lawyer and says: `I'm giving myself up,'" says Pugash.

It has become impossible to venture outdoors in the city without becoming the star of a two-second television production: Girl Digging Through Purse for Bank Card, Couple Arguing, or Nosepicker.

You're on camera on the DVP, the Gardiner, the 401, at City Hall, the ATM machine, the subway platform, the GO station, in stores, on sidewalks and at red lights.

If you are stopped in Toronto by an OPP officer, the entire exchange – including everything you say – is recorded by a camera in the cruiser. Officers wear microphones secured to their uniforms. They will tell you that you are being recorded, but you do not have the option of not being recorded.

"A lot of potentially argumentative people are less so once they find out it's being taped," says OPP Sgt. Cam Woolley of the highway safety division. "It's also become very useful in court – a lot of people will basically lie to save insurance money."

The OPP also has access to the Ministry of Transportation's traffic cameras.

"Without them, we probably couldn't manage the highways because we have the same number of officers we had 30 years ago," says Woolley.

Depending on how surveillance cameras are operated and who is monitoring them, a lot could happen to that image of you, captured as you walk or shop or drive. It could be monitored by someone in a control room, who could manipulate the camera to get a better shot of your cleavage. He could print it and post it on the wall of his room.

Don't think it doesn't happen. In Tuscaloosa, Ala., state police have been accused of focusing their cameras on the breasts and buttocks of young women walking down the street. In Britain, police in a control room in the Midlands were recently caught taking close-ups of women with large breasts.

It could wind up on YouTube, where security camera footage has its own niche.

Toronto Police Service cameras have been set up to discourage abuse. The cameras are not monitored. There is no central control room. If a crime is committed in the vicinity of a camera, the recording is retrieved. Otherwise, it is erased within 72 hours. No record is kept. There is no audio.

The measures followed consultations with the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner of Ontario, which has issued detailed guidelines for public surveillance cameras. The guidelines recommend collecting the least amount of information possible; they say that cameras should only be installed when other methods have demonstrably failed; that cameras should not be directed to look through the windows of adjacent buildings; and that if cameras are adjustable by operators, their movement should be restricted.

"The things that have been identified as problems ... in England ... can you poke and peek at things you shouldn't be doing, all that stuff, the police here have gone to some lengths to address that," says Assistant Commissioner Ken Anderson.

He said his office has not received a single complaint from the public.

In Toronto's Entertainment District, where many businesses already have their own private cameras and signs on their doors disclosing that information to their customers, John LeFave, a manager of Hal Burgers, welcomes the new cameras.

"They're absolutely necessary for this neighbourhood," he says. "It gets pretty ugly down here. We lock our doors promptly at 10 p.m. because we want to escape the club crowd."

There is no doubt the cameras help solve and prosecute crimes. Who can forget the searing image of two-year-old James Bulger being led by the hand away from his mother in Liverpool, England by two 10-year-olds who later murdered him?

In Toronto, video surveillance cameras have recently led to the arrests of suspects in three deaths: Bly Markis, 33, who was strangled in a stairwell of a downtown building; Nick Brown, 21, who was fatally stabbed on the subway; and Gerard Telesford, 44, whose beating was captured on a residential building's security camera.

Police forces generally report favourably on the outcomes of pilot projects, but studies of public surveillance cameras have reported conflicting findings.

A large British review of closed-circuit television (CCTV) studies concluded that overall, public surveillance cameras reduce crime, but only to a small degree.
It found CCTV most effective at helping to reduce car theft, and least effective at fighting violent crime.

A 2002 University of Cincinnati study found that crime dropped and then rebounded after surveillance cameras were installed in certain areas of the city. While cameras seem to have an initial deterrent effect, people become desensitized to them over time, diluting the potential for long-term deterrence. It recommended moving them every two months as a possible solution.

Bruce Schneier, an expert on security technology and author of Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World, has said that surveillance cameras essentially "move crime around."

A small but interesting 1995 study asked once-armed convenience store robbers serving time in Washington state prisons to rank the most important factors that would deter them from robbing a convenience store. The presence of video cameras ranked dead last on their list.

The $2-million pilot project underway in Toronto was funded by the province.

"We're definitely opposed, the major reason being that they're ineffective and expensive," says Daniel Quinn of the Toronto Public Space Committee of the cameras. "It's an inordinate amount of power that you're granting to the police that can and has been proven in the past to be potentially abuse."

He, too, has been surprised by the easy acceptance of the cameras. The legal challenge mounted by former federal privacy commissioner George Radwanski was dismissed on procedural grounds, and the office is no longer pursuing it. But during that process, former Supreme Court Justice Gerard La Forest issued a legal opinion that general video surveillance for law enforcement purposes – recorded or not – likely infringes upon one's reasonable expectation of privacy. A Charter challenge on that basis could render public video surveillance illegal in Canada, according to a paper by the Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic (CIPPIC). That is, if anyone can be found to challenge it.


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Like the author of this article, and some quoted therein, I just canNOT get over the sheer scale and breadth of newfound utter indifference to this truly frightening shit.

I've spent the last few years fighting the violations of our civil liberties since 9-11. I have to say I don't find this issue high on my priority list. ... If you're doing nothing wrong in public, you should have nothing to fear.

Speechless...

Is this really the only planet I can live on, for the time being?
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There is a point at which cameras all over the place could become oppressive and start reminding us of Orwell's 1984. We are a long way yet from anything like that. I have no problem with usual security cameras in lobbies or stairwells of office buildings (such as those at the Xerox building which apparently resulted in identifying a murderer). I would be glad to see a few more cameras in the subway, as they would add greatly to feelings of security for many people (not just in view of possible bombers, but more likely muggings etc.) More than one female friend has said that they would feel much safer in the subway, especially late at night, if there were more cameras.

The key question is, are you in a location where you have an expectation of privacy? I don't think anyone could say that you do, while in the subway, walking down Yonge Street, in the lobby of an office building, etc.

Edit: As an afterthought, the Xerox building is directly above the most important subway station. It's good that they have cameras in the stairwells, but might be better yet if access to the basement areas were seriously restricted.
 
There is a point at which cameras all over the place could become oppressive and start reminding us of Orwell's 1984. We are a long way yet from anything like that. I have no problem with usual security cameras in lobbies or stairwells of office buildings (such as those at the Xerox building which apparently resulted in identifying a murderer). I would be glad to see a few more cameras in the subway, as they would add greatly to feelings of security for many people (not just in view of possible bombers, but more likely muggings etc.) More than one female friend has said that they would feel much safer in the subway, especially late at night, if there were more cameras.

The key question is, are you in a location where you have an expectation of privacy? I don't think anyone could say that you do, while in the subway, walking down Yonge Street, in the lobby of an office building, etc.

Edit: As an afterthought, the Xerox building is directly above the most important subway station. It's good that they have cameras in the stairwells, but might be better yet if access to the basement areas were seriously restricted.

There are also places we consider "public" but really aren't - such as office buildings. If RBC, for example, wants to put a lot of security cameras in their new office tower, they're perfectly within their rights to do so.
 
One is probably captured by dozens of cameras during the normal activities of the day.

I don't agree with that hard attitude that if you're doing nothing wrong you should have nothing to fear, but I accept reality and am a soft-believer that a limited number of cameras operated by police are not a threat to me or my security.
 
I have no problem with public cameras, I see them no differently than hiring a large number of new street police to keep the peace. This is just an "automated" more efficient version of the same thing.

I can remember when I was in London, coming home after an office party -- not being able to make it home due to a sudden "emergency" and having to stop to let the "emergency" drain away .... then looking up to see that I was on three different cameras :eek: I guess they did not view it as a big crime :p
 

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