Narrow roads often work better than wide ones

[valkoholic]

Understanding the purpose of the report will tell you why they came away with the result that narrower roads work better

"Designing Walkable Urban Thoroughfares"

Why not make them even more walkable and have no motorized vehicles at all.

Reason 1 - most buildings in our city need access to motor vehicles for transit, deliveries, etc.
Reason 2 - the idea of car-less areas hasn't worked well (even for pedestrians) where Toronto has tried it (i.e. Simcoe north of Queen).

Good road design can accomodate cars, pedestrians and transit without being exclusive to certain uses. In fact, most examples I've seen where one mode is excluded end up pretty crappy.

 

[Marko]

I guess I'll have to use green font for sarcasm, next time.

 

[reaperexpress]

Reason 1 - most buildings in our city need access to motor vehicles for transit, deliveries, etc.
Reason 2 - the idea of car-less areas hasn't worked well (even for pedestrians) where Toronto has tried it (i.e. Simcoe north of Queen).

Good road design can accomodate cars, pedestrians and transit without being exclusive to certain uses. In fact, most examples I've seen where one mode is excluded end up pretty crappy.

European cities have demonstrated that car-free areas can be very successful. In many central areas, motor traffic is not banned, but simply restricted to essential traffic such as transit, deliveries and residents. One big advantage of eliminating cars is that it also eliminates the need for traffic controls such as stop signs or traffic lights. Bicycles are then in their element, since they can flow freely, making them far more attractive than they ever could be with tons of cars around. Cyclists could easily average 20-25km/h, something unheard of by any mode in downtown Toronto, except for the subway.

I think the problem with Simcoe is that while closing it to cars, they made it useless to everyone else as well. I think it has great potential if we redesign it to be a through route for cyclists.

 

[valkoholic]

Sorry, Marko, I was into the bourbon last night which seems to have affected my sarcasm-detector.

 

[junctionist]

Uuummmm, nope sorry. electric Streetcars were invented in the 1880's, but horse drawn streetcars were around for a long time before that. even though we didn't have them in Toronto until 1862, Toronto was a sleepy little town prior to that. So in short, yeas a hand full of streets around the St. Lawrence area did in fact pre-date street cars, over 95% of our city was developed post streetcars, with streetcars and horse drawn cart being the main transportation of the day. So really only areas developed post 1940 had the car in mind for our main source of transportation.

I think spider is right to be wary of attributing Toronto's street design to streetcars. They follow the precedents of St. Lawrence and the concession roads with enough space for pedestrians and horse-drawn vehicles, but not streetcars specifically. The old city emerging from the early 1800s--the bustling capital of Upper Canada and not just a sleepy little town--was focused primarily on walking due to its size. Horsedrawn streetcars proved helpful to moving people over longer distances than what's practical by walking, but many people didn't have to travel such distances regularly in the mid-19 century so the city didn't yet have to plan rigourously around them. Even larger cities like Paris in the 19th century functioned more around pedestrian patterns. Streetcars started to be more important with the rise of suburbs built around them, by which point the streets of the old central city were set in stone. It's those suburbs where such infrastructure was considered from the beginning.

Reason 1 - most buildings in our city need access to motor vehicles for transit, deliveries, etc.
Reason 2 - the idea of car-less areas hasn't worked well (even for pedestrians) where Toronto has tried it (i.e. Simcoe north of Queen).

Good road design can accomodate cars, pedestrians and transit without being exclusive to certain uses. In fact, most examples I've seen where one mode is excluded end up pretty crappy.

When it comes to pedestrianized areas, we need to conceptualize them as more flexible than we do at present. You can see hundreds of vibrant pedestrian areas in a trip to Europe. They're simply zones closed to most private vehicles but still accessible to delivery and municipal vehicles which drive slowly through the street and pedestrians step aside. They're often flexible enough to be changed into vehicular streets simply by changing signs or stipulating accessibility restrictions on signs; sometimes there aren't even bollards seperating them from the grid, just a vehicle restriction sign at intersections.

It's very pleasant to be able to freely walk down the centre of a street taking in all the architecture with others walking the same way. Restaurants can have very deep patios and a city feels more relaxed and livable this way. It's best though, to choose an area where it's already very difficult to drive to pedestrianize, with a huge number of pedestrians throughout the day (both tourists and locals), and people walking for many different purposes.

 

[Memph]

When it comes to pedestrianized areas, we need to conceptualize them as more flexible than we do at present. You can see hundreds of vibrant pedestrian areas in a trip to Europe. They're simply zones closed to most private vehicles but still accessible to delivery and municipal vehicles which drive slowly through the street and pedestrians step aside. They're often flexible enough to be changed into vehicular streets simply by changing signs or stipulating accessibility restrictions on signs; sometimes there aren't even bollards seperating them from the grid, just a vehicle restriction sign at intersections.

It's very pleasant to be able to freely walk down the centre of a street taking in all the architecture with others walking the same way. Restaurants can have very deep patios and a city feels more relaxed and livable this way. It's best though, to choose an area where it's already very difficult to drive to pedestrianize, with a huge number of pedestrians throughout the day (both tourists and locals), and people walking for many different purposes.

I agree, I visited the region of Dalmatia in Croatia, much of which was part of the Venetian empire, and most of the old towns there have cores that where cars are forbidden or at least very uncommon, and it feels great. In most cases in Toronto, it wouldn't makes sense to pedestrianize large streets, but streets like Market Street, and the streets in Kensington Market as well as streets in the U of T and Ryerson campuses like Gould or Victoria could probably be appropriate as pedestrian streets. I also think Yonge street should be narrowed to 2 streets like King Street in Kitchener. I think it could even be completely pedestrianized, but then the city should either sell/rent parts of the street for retail or shape it into some sort of central square or linear park.

 

[Mulder]

Road engineers currently design streets and roads NOT for the posted speed limit, but for 10 km OVER the limit. Guess what happens? Drivers go over the speed limit, because they feel like they can because of the road design.

Incorrect.

Drivers are going to speed regardless if a 50km/h posted speed limit road was designed for 50km/h or 80km/h. The design speed is a mathematical properly for designing vertical and horizontal curves. And the reason why the almost always design roads above for speeds above the posted limit is because of safety. The speed limit and design speed is also very carefully chosen, though many traffic studies.

Also, the owner of the road can be liable if an accident occurs on said road . Either it be city, provincial, municipality. Designing a road or street safely doesn't mean designing the road to the minimum.

 

[reaperexpress]

Incorrect.

Drivers are going to speed regardless if a 50km/h posted speed limit road was designed for 50km/h or 80km/h. The design speed is a mathematical properly for designing vertical and horizontal curves. And the reason why the almost always design roads above for speeds above the posted limit is because of safety. The speed limit and design speed is also very carefully chosen, though many traffic studies.

Also, the owner of the road can be liable if an accident occurs on said road . Either it be city, provincial, municipality. Designing a road or street safely doesn't mean designing the road to the minimum.

Debatable.

I've noticed quite a striking correlation between speeding and apparent road design standard. For example, Allen Road south of Wilson was designed as part of the Spadina Expressway, which presumably would have had a 90 or 100km/h speed limit. But the speed limit was set to 80km/h when the expressway was cancelled and Allen Road was deemed an arterial instead. Traffic on Allen road adheres much more closely to a freeway limit than the actual limit (traffic permitting). Feel free to check for yourself, using Google Traffic. Northbound at Yorkdale, traffic speed seems to generally be 57-63mph (90-100km/h)'ve seen traffic speeds as high as 67mph (108km/h).

A similar phenomenon seems to occur on local roads as well. I tend to drive at what I consider to be a responsible speed on residential roads, but I've noticed that speed I consider responsible varies considerably on different roads with the same speed limit. I find myself driving a lot slower when the road is narrower, turns are sharper, there are more people about and visibility is more poor. So designing a road "to the minimum" probably doesn't affect anything because people will compensate with their speed and attentiveness.

For example, on Brownridge Avenue in Vaughan (limit 40), I tend to drive at around 40km/h, but on Glen Shields Avenue (also limit 40) I tend to drive at 50km/h. The main difference there is the visibility and road width.

Whereas roads' original speed limits may have been set by engineers, many have been changed by politicians. For example, York Region is currently changing many of its speed limits without changing the road design at all.

 

[MisterF]

Incorrect.

Drivers are going to speed regardless if a 50km/h posted speed limit road was designed for 50km/h or 80km/h. The design speed is a mathematical properly for designing vertical and horizontal curves. And the reason why the almost always design roads above for speeds above the posted limit is because of safety. The speed limit and design speed is also very carefully chosen, though many traffic studies.

Also, the owner of the road can be liable if an accident occurs on said road . Either it be city, provincial, municipality. Designing a road or street safely doesn't mean designing the road to the minimum.

People drive according to their surroundings. If the design speed of a road is 80 km/h, that's what most people will drive regardless of the speed limit. People tend to drive slower on a street like College than on a big suburban arterial, even when the speed limit and traffic conditions are the same. There's a reason that traffic calming works - when you make drivers nervous, they slow down.

Those studies you cite aren't the be all and end all of road design. In most countries the roads are indeed designed to the posted limit, or even lower by MTO standards. In the Czech Republic for example, the freeways are designed to a lower standard than in Ontario, but the speed limit is 130. This road in Wales has a higher speed limit than this road in Ontario. We have a strange habit of designing our roads to some of the highest standards in the world with some of the lowest speed limits.

 

[Hipster Duck]

People drive according to their surroundings. If the design speed of a road is 80 km/h, that's what most people will drive regardless of the speed limit. People tend to drive slower on a street like College than on a big suburban arterial, even when the speed limit and traffic conditions are the same. There's a reason that traffic calming works - when you make drivers nervous, they slow down.

Those studies you cite aren't the be all and end all of road design. In most countries the roads are indeed designed to the posted limit, or even lower by MTO standards. In the Czech Republic for example, the freeways are designed to a lower standard than in Ontario, but the speed limit is 130. This road in Wales has a higher speed limit than this road in Ontario. We have a strange habit of designing our roads to some of the highest standards in the world with some of the lowest speed limits.

Absolutely correct. British Columbia drivers tend to drive the speed limit because their roads are barely designed for faster travel. A BC freeway really should be driven at 100 km/h with their lack of shoulders, tight curves, narrow lanes, outdated cloverleafs and 1950s style short acceleration and exit lanes that the MTO painstakingly did away with over the last 3 decades.

Ontario freeways, on the other hand, are built to an exceptionally high standards, on par with newly-built interstate highways in the Western US. The difference, of course, is that those highways tend to have a 70, 75 or 80 mph speed limit (112, 120 or 128 km/h). It's kind of ridiculous that the 407, with its concrete surface, super stack interchanges, 300 m long acceleration and exit lanes and tower lighting has a 100 km/h speed limit, and the level of "speeding" demonstrates this.

 

[reaperexpress]

Absolutely correct. British Columbia drivers tend to drive the speed limit because their roads are barely designed for faster travel. A BC freeway really should be driven at 100 km/h with their lack of shoulders, tight curves, narrow lanes, outdated cloverleafs and 1950s style short acceleration and exit lanes that the MTO painstakingly did away with over the last 3 decades.

Ontario freeways, on the other hand, are built to an exceptionally high standards, on par with newly-built interstate highways in the Western US. The difference, of course, is that those highways tend to have a 70, 75 or 80 mph speed limit (112, 120 or 128 km/h). It's kind of ridiculous that the 407, with its concrete surface, super stack interchanges, 300 m long acceleration and exit lanes and tower lighting has a 100 km/h speed limit, and the level of "speeding" demonstrates this.

This topic has come up before and I've never really been convinced about bothering to raise speed limits. For example, raising the speed limit on the 401 would just create more traffic congestion by increasing the variability between stop and go.

But now that you mention it, the 407 is the ideal candidate for a higher speed limit. By design, congestion is not an issue (if traffic starts slowing, they just raise the toll) and I'm sure the company wouldn't object to the idea (it would further increase the value of the service they provide).

Which gives me a thought: maybe highway tolls would get more public support if they were paired with speed limit increases.

And I have no clue how this relates to narrow roads.

 

[Mulder]

Debatable.

I've noticed quite a striking correlation between speeding and apparent road design standard. For example, Allen Road south of Wilson was designed as part of the Spadina Expressway, which presumably would have had a 90 or 100km/h speed limit. But the speed limit was set to 80km/h when the expressway was cancelled and Allen Road was deemed an arterial instead. Traffic on Allen road adheres much more closely to a freeway limit than the actual limit (traffic permitting). Feel free to check for yourself, using Google Traffic. Northbound at Yorkdale, traffic speed seems to generally be 57-63mph (90-100km/h)'ve seen traffic speeds as high as 67mph (108km/h).

A similar phenomenon seems to occur on local roads as well. I tend to drive at what I consider to be a responsible speed on residential roads, but I've noticed that speed I consider responsible varies considerably on different roads with the same speed limit. I find myself driving a lot slower when the road is narrower, turns are sharper, there are more people about and visibility is more poor. So designing a road "to the minimum" probably doesn't affect anything because people will compensate with their speed and attentiveness.

For example, on Brownridge Avenue in Vaughan (limit 40), I tend to drive at around 40km/h, but on Glen Shields Avenue (also limit 40) I tend to drive at 50km/h. The main difference there is the visibility and road width.

Whereas roads' original speed limits may have been set by engineers, many have been changed by politicians. For example, York Region is currently changing many of its speed limits without changing the road design at all.

While I don't disagree with you, The Allen south of Wilson is a pretty straight road. And save for over the 401, offramp at Lawrence and the end, there is pretty much no vertical difference either. Highway Engineers don't take into account design speed on flat highways or roads.

And while that may seem "ludicrous". Just think about it, on straight flatish roads, what else is there to design? Once you have the crest of the highway for drainage, nothing. In my job, we have mostly have worked with existing roads, and once we adjust the curves, either it be horizontal or vertical, and if the grade is ok, we just match existing.

In your example where York is changing posted speed limits, as with usually the case when the speed limit is raised there was already a study or consultation done, to prove said roads could handle the extra speed and still protect motorists safety. And when the road surface needs to been done, they usually bring up the standards of said road with it.

 

[Mulder]

People drive according to their surroundings. If the design speed of a road is 80 km/h, that's what most people will drive regardless of the speed limit. People tend to drive slower on a street like College than on a big suburban arterial, even when the speed limit and traffic conditions are the same. There's a reason that traffic calming works - when you make drivers nervous, they slow down.

Those studies you cite aren't the be all and end all of road design. In most countries the roads are indeed designed to the posted limit, or even lower by MTO standards. In the Czech Republic for example, the freeways are designed to a lower standard than in Ontario, but the speed limit is 130. This road in Wales has a higher speed limit than this road in Ontario. We have a strange habit of designing our roads to some of the highest standards in the world with some of the lowest speed limits.

Design speed is determined by the Geological features of the road. Ontario picture you post a straight section of highway, there is no Geological features and thus design speed doesn't matter. Save for maybe MTO standards on ditches and shoulders.
It's pretty much standard in Ontario that all non-400 series roads are 80km/h speed limits.

 

[W. K. Lis]

In the design for the new Scarlett Road/CP rail bridge project (St. Clair/Scarlett Road), they mention that the design of the road will be 60 km/h, but the posted limit is 50 km/h. Click on this link to download the PDF of the Scarlett Road/CP Rail Bridge Class Environmental Assessment Study. Scroll down to page 81 for the recommended design for Scarlett Road, St. Clair Avenue West, and Dundas Street West intersection.

 

[spider]

Way back when the DVP was completed to the 401 a northbound driver after having driven the beautiful new 4 lane limited access expressway posted at 50 MPH crossed the 401 after which the road continued as a plain 2 lane country road posted at a 60 MPH limit.

Go figure.