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MoveOntario 2020: GO Transit Electrification

Let's not forget that more trains would have to run on Yonge to achieve higher capacity, in addition to the Bloor/Yonge expansion and the PED installation. More trains mean an increase in operating costs.

Yes. More trains does add to operating, but not very much. The fixed costs of maintaining the tunnel, signals, track, and stations outweighs that cost significantly.

Boosting frequency on Yonge is a variable cost which can be adjusted to match ridership.

Maintaining a DRL is a fixed cost that exists even if there are zero riders. Even a mothballed line requires tens of millions of dollars of maintenance per year.


Due to the challenges in raising fares and obtaining subsidy, it is pretty obvious why TTC management would want to avoid a large fixed addition to the SOGR expense account when there are alternatives that can work temporarily which do not add a fixed expense.


I think it is worth while building the DRL but we should allow the TTC flexibility to fund some of the fixed maintenance costs outside of fare-box revenue.
 
Let's not forget that more trains would have to run on Yonge to achieve higher capacity, in addition to the Bloor/Yonge expansion and the PED installation. More trains mean an increase in operating costs. ... it is not obvious that Yonge capacity hike will come a winner, even in terms of the revenue / operating cost balance.

We need to think about operating profit on various routes and lines, not operating cost alone. Yes, the TTC covers only 70% of operating cost on average from the farebox. But that means that high-demand routes are profitable while others are losers. Downtown riders are subsidizing the outer suburbs, and the TTC likes it that way.

In this case, this means that adding a fully loaded train to Yonge at rush hour is a "profit centre" for TTC - the revenue increase is much bigger than the operating cost increase. Same could not be said for DRL.
 
Yes, right on, k10ery. Really, it's such the shame that downtown riders have to subsidize money-losing, low demand bus routes like 35 Jane and 36 Finch West. Thanks to the money-draining suburban bus riders in outer Toronto, the TTC will be forced to settle with mere increase Yonge subway line capacity instead of building the far more beneficial DRL. Suburbanites are like parasites scrounging off the superior downtown culture has built. Thank goodness for Rob Ford and his cuts to suburban bus service, it brings new hope for downtown.
 
Sarcasm overload! I can't figure out how to respond.

(My only point was that high farebox recovery skews the TTC's priorities. I'm not saying suburbanites shouldn't be subsidized. Just that downtown riders are a cash cow.)
 
Short transit trips are by far the most profitable. Riders getting on and off every couple of stops is a more profitable use of a transit vehicle's capacity. Long haul trips are less profitable both due to the cost of traveling that distance but also by a rider occupying a spot on a transit vehicle for said trip.
 
Sarcasm overload! I can't figure out how to respond.

(My only point was that high farebox recovery skews the TTC's priorities. I'm not saying suburbanites shouldn't be subsidized. Just that downtown riders are a cash cow.)

Subway riders (both downtown and suburban residents) are the "cash cow". Downtown streetcar rider are as much a drain on the TTC as suburban bus riders (50-60% cost recovery on major routes).The slower speed of streetcars due to traffic limits their efficiency (i.e. more vehicles required to prvide same capacity along a certain distance).

The efficient TTC surface route? 64 Main (~80% weekday cost recovery), and it doesn't service downtown.

And no TTC bus/streetcar route compares to MT's 19 Hurontario which today still has ~100% cost recovery on Satudays (107% in 2004). It had 115% cost recovery on weekdays in 2004 before major service changes in 2005. Today, the weekday cost recovery ratio of 19 Hurontario is down to ~70%, still higher than any TTC bus or streetcar route except 64 Main. And of course, like 64 Main, the 19 Hurontario doesn't service downtown either.
 
Subway riders (both downtown and suburban residents) are the "cash cow". Downtown streetcar rider are as much a drain on the TTC as suburban bus riders (50-60% cost recovery on major routes).The slower speed of streetcars due to traffic limits their efficiency (i.e. more vehicles required to prvide same capacity along a certain distance).

The efficient TTC surface route? 64 Main (~80% weekday cost recovery), and it doesn't service downtown.

And no TTC bus/streetcar route compares to MT's 19 Hurontario which today still has ~100% cost recovery on Satudays (107% in 2004). It had 115% cost recovery on weekdays in 2004 before major service changes in 2005. Today, the weekday cost recovery ratio of 19 Hurontario is down to ~70%, still higher than any TTC bus or streetcar route except 64 Main. And of course, like 64 Main, the 19 Hurontario doesn't service downtown either.

I understand your argument for why downtown streetcar/bus riders are less profitable, but how does that apply to the subway? Subways don't get stuck in traffic.
 
I understand your argument for why downtown streetcar/bus riders are less profitable, but how does that apply to the subway? Subways don't get stuck in traffic.

The first sentence in my post suggested that I think the subways are profitable or close to profitable, which is why I said they are the real "cash cow". Subways are located in both downtown and suburbs, and both downtown and suburban residents use it, so I don't think it accurate to say downtown residents are "subsidizing" suburban residents. Even if you consider subways to be more profitable in downtown than the outer parts, you'd have to ignore the fact that the streetcars, except 510 Spadina, are just horribly inefficient compared to the major suburban routes.

Even saying that subway riders subsidize bus and streetcar riders doesn't make sense to me, because that would ignore the fact that many subways riders also use streetcars and buses, including the more efficient suburban buses...

On a side note: people who think that artics will make TTC more efficient need to look at 501 Queen: the most inefficient major streetcar route by far, and more inefficient than most of the suburban bus routes, even the minor ones... In 2007, it cost the TTC $87,500 to serve 43,500 riders per weekday on 501 Queen, while it cost them only $54,900 to serve 42,600 riders per weekday for the 36 Finch West bus. Artics more efficient? Downtown transit more efficient? You be the judge.
 
And no TTC bus/streetcar route compares to MT's 19 Hurontario which today still has ~100% cost recovery on Satudays (107% in 2004). It had 115% cost recovery on weekdays in 2004 before major service changes in 2005. Today, the weekday cost recovery ratio of 19 Hurontario is down to ~70%, still higher than any TTC bus or streetcar route except 64 Main. And of course, like 64 Main, the 19 Hurontario doesn't service downtown either.

Do be careful when comparing route specific numbers across agencies. They do not take measure cash splits for transfers in the same way.

You can just take the farebox count and ignore transfers.
You can assign one portion per vehicle used (Finch/Yonge to Bay/Queen [transfer to 501] could be 50% for subway and 50% for 501)
You can assign a portion per distance covered (majority for Yonge above, little for Queen).

Issues occur with all of the above. Ideally you pick a number based on importance to the end user (would they continue to use other service if one leg disappeared).

It is even more difficult to split a transit pass effectively. User might buy the metropass entirely because of their daily streetcar commute but they use the subway to go to lunch regularly as a result of having it. The subway is a value-add but not really selling the pass itself.


Most businesses have this difficulty. Did you win the big contract because George the salesman sold it or because product development put out a particularly good release or because excellent technical support for another customer got George the referral? How do you weight the contribution for their annual bonus?
 
Do be careful when comparing route specific numbers across agencies. They do not take measure cash splits for transfers in the same way.

You can just take the farebox count and ignore transfers.
You can assign one portion per vehicle used (Finch/Yonge to Bay/Queen [transfer to 501] could be 50% for subway and 50% for 501)
You can assign a portion per distance covered (majority for Yonge above, little for Queen).


Issues occur with all of the above. Ideally you pick a number based on importance to the end user (would they continue to use other service if one leg disappeared).

It is even more difficult to split a transit pass effectively. User might buy the metropass entirely because of their daily streetcar commute but they use the subway to go to lunch regularly as a result of having it. The subway is a value-add but not really selling the pass itself.


Most businesses have this difficulty. Did you win the big contract because George the salesman sold it or because product development put out a particularly good release or because excellent technical support for another customer got George the referral? How do you weight the contribution for their annual bonus?

Based on my years of data for the MT, MT 19 does make money. I use a cost of $1.32 to $1.62 per rider over the years that factor in the different fare rate as well transfers. Hour rate range between $85 to $100/hr over those years to put a bus on the road.

I have see the cost being as low as $.15 for a rider to ride 19.

Then I have some routes costing $17.50 to $35.66 per rider to ride the route in the first place. At various times of the day, some routes carry no one. I have been the only rider on the bus for those routes that have a runtime of 25 to 35 minutes and I never include my cost for those routes.

As for a subway making a profit, it will only happen in a small section of the Yonge Line and that between Union and Eglinton.

You need to look at 1 to 3 transfer per rider using the subway to figure out what the real cost revenue is. Transfer from BD to YUS is a transfer live YUS to Sheppard. Person going to STC to Downtown is a 3 transfer person, if not 4.

I think TTC is using $1.70 per rider as a revenue to a route and this takes into consideration the various fares rates and transfer these days.

If TTC or the province every gets the Real SMART Card, they will have a true picture as to ridership travel patterns and numbers to say what the real cost ratio is per route. This Tap Tap system Presto is not going to do it.

I have got my GTA pass cost down to $1.25 per trip and that is based on TTC standards.
 

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