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Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

^ For (b), I thought you said the Bayview Station design that's under construction right now for the Confederation Line LRT wouldn't impact your plan? Here's what your letter said:

"REMISZ also drafted, and MOOSE has already proposed to the City and to the Agency, a way to reconnect the dismantled approach track to the bridge connecting Ottawa and Gatineau. This essential remediation project would cost of approximately $25M, but it leaves the City of Ottawa's new Bayview Station design exactly as it is, and would not interfere with the delivery timeline of the OLRT Project."

Can you elaborate how your recent letter says your plan "wouldn't interfere" but you have concerns about (b)?

Also, from your plan and the Stage 2 Ottawa plan, my understanding is that you want to run heavy rail commuter trains (via two routes interlined - red and purple). A heavy rail MP40-3C is shown on your bridge diagram.

I've also included a shot from Google maps but I realize it doesn't show Bayview Station under construction. Just context. Feel free to create your own maps marked up to explain further. I find it helps. Are there any more recent aerial shots of the Bayview location showing the LRT station construction progress?

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@Allandale25

Pretty obvious that MOOSE is just a marketing ploy for a real estate scheme. I don't think even they know what kinds of rail stock they would run. They just throw pictures on brochures and take a rough stab at some PR talking points. And I honestly don't blame them for it. What type of rail stock you run is largely irrelevant at this point. If MOOSE actually somehow managed to get access to the Trillium Line, they would have to buy whatever rail stock was compatible. And it's what they would do.

Also, let's not forget that in the past, Mr. Potvin has argued that the corridor should be turned over to MOOSE to provide sub-par service (substantially lower frequencies than Trillium Line post-Stage 2) to residents inside the greenbelt so that MOOSE's real estate clients can get shitty 30 min suburban rail service. Mr. Potvin isn't looking for compatibility if he can avoid it.

Heck, he's not even looking to provide good rail service. He's looking to provide the minimum amount of service necessary to sell real estate. And given the way condo culture is going in Ottawa, especially with millennials, MOOSE has, at best, maybe 5-10 years, before people truly label Mr. Potvin and his ilk anachronistic kooks. In just the 6 years I've lived there, Ottawa went from a handful of condos on Rideau to building 30 storey buildings, and now you see 50 storey condos (see the one proposed at Bayview station) under construction. Ottawa lagged behind for a a decade on condo culture and is now making up for it at breakneck speed. And none of those developers, or their customers, are interested at all, in what Mr. Potvin is selling.
 
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Sorry one more image. Joseph, I just want to make sure I'm correctly understanding what you're proposing for your "Greenboro Station" where the green line, purple line, and red line intersect. Would it be at the existing Greenboro O-Train Station (just south of Presswood Junction)? Or would you move it slightly to the north so that it intersects with the green line that continues northeast to the VIA Station at Ellwood Junction? I can adjust the dotted blue line on the comparison map I did.

[I have attached a historic Ottawa rail map that notes the names of the rail junctions - Presswood and Ellwood]

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Even if he can't/won't clarify on the type of rolling stock, I do hope my genuine map questions can be clarified for Bayview and Greenboro. They are pretty straight-forward and basic. In looking at the Greenboro question in particular, one would think for Moose's own financial calculations would have to account for if they are going to be closer to the existing development beside Greenboro or just south of Mooney's Bay.[/QUOTE]
 
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@Allandale25,
Multiple configurations are under discussion with the incumbent railway companies and stakeholders. Also, the network configuration will evolve through the next 25 years, so there is not a single answer. We'll publish details of the initial proposal for consultations when appropriate. Until then, broad brush strokes will need to suffice in our public communications.

@kEiThZ,
Hey, are you available for hire?

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
 
^ So, just to be clear, the interchange station for your Greenboro where the green line, purple line, and red line intersect could be at Presswood or Ellwood? Also, are you able to provide some clarity on the rolling stock question at this time? Further, just to be clear, if the City did the discountinance process for the Hull to Bayview portion, would you try to acquire just that portion and run a test of your network as a phase 1, assuming you got the various approvals, or are you waiting until you have approvals for your entire network before you start operating anything? Or, does this fall under "broad strokes" and "details" when "appropriate?
 
@Allandale25

Pretty obvious that MOOSE is just a marketing ploy for a real estate scheme. I don't think even they know what kinds of rail stock they would run. They just throw pictures on brochures and take a rough stab at some PR talking points. And I honestly don't blame them for it. What type of rail stock you run is largely irrelevant at this point. If MOOSE actually somehow managed to get access to the Trillium Line, they would have to buy whatever rail stock was compatible. And it's what they would do.

Also, let's not forget that in the past, Mr. Potvin has argued that the corridor should be turned over to MOOSE to provide sub-par service (substantially lower frequencies than Trillium Line post-Stage 2) to residents inside the greenbelt so that MOOSE's real estate clients can get shitty 30 min suburban rail service. Mr. Potvin isn't looking for compatibility if he can avoid it.

Heck, he's not even looking to provide good rail service. He's looking to provide the minimum amount of service necessary to sell real estate. And given the way condo culture is going in Ottawa, especially with millennials, MOOSE has, at best, maybe 5-10 years, before people truly label Mr. Potvin and his ilk anachronistic kooks. In just the 6 years I've lived there, Ottawa went from a handful of condos on Rideau to building 30 storey buildings, and now you see 50 storey condos (see the one proposed at Bayview station) under construction. Ottawa lagged behind for a a decade on condo culture and is now making up for it at breakneck speed. And none of those developers, or their customers, are interested at all, in what Mr. Potvin is selling.

Hourly rail service to rural areas is something that even places in the GTA would die for. Kitchener isn't even close to getting full-day service yet.
 
Hey, are you available for hire?

How about you use every penny you have to finish and publish a legitimate feasibly study?

^ So, just to be clear, the interchange station for your Greenboro where the green line, purple line, and red line intersect could be at Presswood or Ellwood? Also, are you able to provide some clarity on the rolling stock question at this time? Further, just to be clear, if the City did the discountinance process for the Hull to Bayview portion, would you try to acquire just that portion and run a test of your network as a phase 1, assuming you got the various approvals, or are you waiting until you have approvals for your entire network before you start operating anything? Or, does this fall under "broad strokes" and "details" when "appropriate?

Between here and SSP they've been clear. They are not bound by existing station locations and they don't give a shit about existing Trillium Line users. They will locate stations where their customers (read real estate investors) stand to benefit the most.

Hourly rail service to rural areas is something that even places in the GTA would die for. Kitchener isn't even close to getting full-day service yet.

It would indeed be great to have rural rail service. But not at the cost of completely demolishing urban transit in Ottawa-Gatineau. Giving up 10 min frequencies on the Trillium Line (and probably better if the line is double tracked later) for 30 mins or worse rural rail service is not a good trade.
 
Hourly rail service to rural areas is something that even places in the GTA would die for. Kitchener isn't even close to getting full-day service yet.

And there's a reason for that. CN still owns the tracks between Bramalea and Georgetown. It's expensive and not easy to acquire sections of track from the private freight railways.
 
RE: precedent

The timing and wording of Decision R-2018-23 may bring useful clarity to the Omnitrax case:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/omnitrax-canadian-transportation-agency-1.4516977
My immediate reflex was to the Mount Royal Tunnel and the REM situation, and the claim by some that the CDPQ are immune from the CTA's jurisdiction by the acquisition of the RoW by the Province. It's a curious case, as REM note themselves in their prospectus that Transport Canada have jurisdiction. I've searched, and can find no application or approval in the past for CN to divest that jurisdiction by application to the CTA. Application may have occurred, but repeated searches fail to find it.

The CBC link you provide is a good lead (Hudson's Bay Railway is clearly a federally regulated railway, even though provincially incorporated) but this link makes the point much more clearly: (The similarities to PoW Bridge and Mount Royal Tunnel are striking, as are the lines of argument)
Canadian Transportation Agency continuing investigation against Omnitrax
Dylan Robertson and Nick Martin
Winnipeg Free Press
02/3/2018 3:00 AM

OTTAWA — The national transport regulator is continuing its investigation against Omnitrax over whether it broke federal law by abandoning its railway to Churchill, after rebuffing the company’s attempts to have officials shelve the probe.

Documents released by the Manitoba NDP, which is the complainant in the investigation, show the company tried arguing its Hudson Bay Railway is a separate entity from Denver-based Omnitrax, which also claimed the political party didn’t qualify as a complainant because it isn’t directly impacted by the railway disruption.

The Canadian Transportation Agency received a dozen complaints after the Free Press revealed in August that Omnitrax was likely breaching the strict federal laws around how companies can abandon railways. The CTA chose one complaint filed by an NDP caucus staffer, as it had enough context to represent the other 11 complaints.

The railway to Churchill (a town of 900, located 1,600 kilometres north of Winnipeg) washed out May 23, 2017; two months later, Omnitrax said it would not repair the line as it was "not economically viable," prompting a showdown with Ottawa that reached the courts last month.

The CTA can issue fines and even order a takeover of infrastructure that companies abandon or misuse. A year ago, the regulator ordered CP Rail to fix a bridge that caught fire after it tried abandoning it, and compensate a company’s loses for not being able to ship products.

"A railway company cannot permanently relieve itself of its statutory obligations by indirect means by deciding not to rehabilitate a railway line," the regulator ruled.

Omnitrax has tried getting CTA to quash its ongoing probe, saying the Hudson Bay Railway is a separate entity. The company accused the NDP of trying to "pierce some undefined corporate veil" between the two entities. The regulator disagreed, noting Omnitrax officials have spoken on behalf of the railway multiple times.

Omnitrax also claimed the NDP isn’t directly impacted by the railway disruption, and that case law forbids "a free-for-all" for "busy bodies" to file complaints. The regulator dismissed those arguments, saying anybody can complain about a line going out of service, unlike a shipper facing logistical hurdles due to slow or inconsistent service.

Meanwhile, Manitoba NDP Leader Wab Kinew chided the Pallister government Friday for not being the ones to have filed a complaint.

"It took an opposition party to get the job done," Kinew said. "I would say to the premier: there’s still time to put the weight of the province behind this."

Provincial Infrastructure Minister Ron Schuler dismissed it as "grandstanding to generate headlines."

"Preening in front of the media does not achieve real solutions," Schuler wrote Friday in a statement, adding he was "reviewing the legal grounds for filing a lawsuit" against Omnitrax over a 2008 funding agreement — something Ottawa did in November over its own 2008 pact.

Schuler also revealed the province estimated it will spend $69 million this fiscal year on Churchill, after Kinew asked for more specifics on Premier Brian Pallister’s September announcement that he’d spend $500 million on the northern Manitoba town over the looming decade.

Kinew noted the CTA complaint could get Omnitrax to reopen the line, or pay millions in damages.

"This is pretty important for the people of Churchill," he told reporters. "They’re telling me they need the rail line open. It is another piece of pressure and a point of leverage."

When asked repeatedly what power the CTA or any other public level in Canada if the agency issues such an order and Omnitrax doesn’t comply, Kinew dismissed such questions as hypothetical. "The business situation is not an excuse for inaction" by Omnitrax, he said.

Kinew will not speak to the CTA, but NDP staff well-versed in the technical issues at stake is handling the process. The NDP is withholding the name of its staffer, who is not an MLA.

The documents also reveal Omnitrax has agreed to share confidential financial information with the regulator and the NDP staffer, which the company argues will prove it has been losing money on the Hudson Bay Railway and thus cannot pay for its estimated $43.5-million repair.

The NDP employee will have to sign a confidentiality agreement to view the company’s unaudited balance sheet, and statements of cash flow and income from 2014 to 2016.

There will be a video-conference meeting Feb. 15, which is not open to the public. Omnitrax’s attempt to drop the case, and the confidentiality negotiations, has likely delayed the probe past its 85-day target, which would have ended Feb. 27.

dylan.robertson@freepress.mb.canick.martin@freepress.mb.ca

Read more by Dylan Robertson and Nick Martin.
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/l...investigation-against-Omnitrax-472439993.html

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It would indeed be great to have rural rail service. But not at the cost of completely demolishing urban transit in Ottawa-Gatineau. Giving up 10 min frequencies on the Trillium Line (and probably better if the line is double tracked later) for 30 mins or worse rural rail service is not a good trade.

That loss of frequency would not be good for Ottawa transit users. Ironically GO is moving in the opposite direction in the GTHA. They want to get to 15 minute peak frequencies.
 
The only talk about frequencies from MOOSE have been on the frequency of trains on the rural lines (it's kind of their primary focus). There's no mention at all about what would happen to service directly in the Trillium Line corridor.
Considering the amount of government approval MOOSE needs to obtain in order for their plan to work... I don't know if the government would allow any of this if MOOSE were to slash service on the Trillium Line.
 
Talk of 'interrupting frequency of service' is ridiculous in today's world of 2-3 minute headway intervals. Done in Europe in a number of nations, done in the Far East, done in NY Penn and Grand Central stations.

Only in Canada you say? Pity...
 
The only talk about frequencies from MOOSE have been on the frequency of trains on the rural lines (it's kind of their primary focus). There's no mention at all about what would happen to service directly in the Trillium Line corridor.
Considering the amount of government approval MOOSE needs to obtain in order for their plan to work... I don't know if the government would allow any of this if MOOSE were to slash service on the Trillium Line.

Plus no guarantee that after the suburban sprawl happens in the villages that MOOSE will not shut down their service. They have made their money on the sale of the land so no point providing this service anymore.

Almost like someone who bought backing onto a golf course and now the golf course is being redeveloped.
 

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