Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

[kEiThZ]

Neither of those things are the spikes that you think they are.

The true spike would be the dismantlement of all relevant rail corridors and then the selling of those corridors, none of which have or are likely to happen.

Find me an investor who will even let Mr. Potvin into his lobby after the first spike is in the ground.

As it stands, the best he could do was a shady Chinese developer. Legitimate companies won't talk to him. And that's when he had a small glimmer of a shot.

 

[OCCheetos]

Find me an investor who will even let Mr. Potvin into his lobby after the first spike is in the ground.

As it stands, the best he could do was a shady Chinese developer. Legitimate companies won't talk to him. And that's when he had a small glimmer of a shot.

The Trillium Line already exists, what is the Riverside South extension going to change? And as I've already mentioned, it's never formally been shown that the Trillium Line corridor can't be shared (with track upgrades, of course).
The Gatineau LRT is still years off and would only make use of the Prince of Wales bridge, which still belongs to the city. The Gatineau LRT crossing is also still just a proposal as the City of Ottawa could decide to extend the Trillium Line instead.

They've been in communication with several other potential investors, it was just never heavily publicized.

 

[kEiThZ]

They've been in communication with several other potential investors, it was just never heavily publicized.

The perpetual storyline from Moose. A decade from now, "We're in discussion with potential investors."

I'm just happy his trolling will be disregarded and we're moving on with construction. And with every load of concrete poured, Moose becomes even less relevant.

 

[steveintoronto]

They've been in communication with several other potential investors, it was just never heavily publicized.

Indeed. One of them is a very well known Capital Company.

What's so curious is the venom against such entrepreneurship. It's the basis of almost every major city's present day rail transit system. And like it or not, Ontario, even under the previous regime, turned to private capital to DBFOM most of GO's expansion. The present regime will go even further.

Some of the most successful rail transit systems in the world are privately funded, built and operated. I wish it were otherwise, but I wish for a lot of things. As it stands, Watson, like a lot of Cdn city mayors, is 'holding the line on tax increases'. As well as delaying the LRT extension, it's delaying a solution to the massive traffic problem in Ottawa.

The worse the jams, the greater the need for private intervention with rail. That's not a case of "spreading sprawl". It's a case of dealing with the already far too extensive sprawl of Ottawa and Region.

In the event, if and when Moose does become a reality, or an analog of it, it won't be based on GO Transit's present rolling stock and model. It will be based on something much more modern, efficient and affordable. Examples already abound in many nations. And a number of them were built and financed by the same holding company that built and supplied the rolling stock.

There's ample evidence on-line of my above claim. "Ah"...but some naive fools will write, "they're not Canadian!". Which would be correct. So far. It's getting very close:

Ambitious light rail project for Montreal proposed by Caisse de dépôt
$5.5B project funded by province's pension fund would span West Island, South Shore
Benjamin Shingler, Steve Rukavina · CBC News · Posted: Apr 22, 2016 6:40 AM ET | Last Updated: April 22, 2016

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/caisse-de-depot-train-de-louest-champlain-bridge-1.3548109

How close? It was ostensibly first going to be supplied rolling stock from Bombardier, of which the Caisse owns 30% of the transportation division, but due to friction and complexities between BBD and the Caisse (the Caisse wanted BBD to sell the transpo division to CRRC)(
Bombardier should consider rail deal with China's CRRC: Caisse CEO ), the order for the rolling stock went to Alstom instead.

[...]
Urban transit projects continue to shape the growth of Canadian cities and knowing how to successfully deliver these complex projects is a challenge. Attend The Canadian Institute’s 2nd Annual Delivering Urban Transit Infrastructure Conference on April 27 & 28, 2016

Delegates last year stated that the conference delivered a “good crosssection of topics relating to design, build, finance and O&M, as well as a good cross-section of Canadian and U.S. representation”. Delegates also found that the preconference workshops “provided great insight into Moody’s methods and P3 Canada’s goals.”

http://www.weirfoulds.com/files/17609_315D16-TOR.pdf

Welcome to the future, Canada. Since the politicians are so beholden to getting elected on platforms almost always based on "No tax increase" (and all the permutations, but Joe Buck a Beer only hears 'taxes'), then if you want tomorrow's solutions today, it's got to come from entrepreneurship.

 

[micheal_can]

The Trillium Line already exists, what is the Riverside South extension going to change? And as I've already mentioned, it's never formally been shown that the Trillium Line corridor can't be shared (with track upgrades, of course).
The Gatineau LRT is still years off and would only make use of the Prince of Wales bridge, which still belongs to the city. The Gatineau LRT crossing is also still just a proposal as the City of Ottawa could decide to extend the Trillium Line instead.

They've been in communication with several other potential investors, it was just never heavily publicized.

I am assuming the Gatineau LRT will be part of phase 3 or 4. Might even be part of phase 2, if Trudeau is feeling he needs votes in the area.

 

[OCCheetos]

I am assuming the Gatineau LRT will be part of phase 3 or 4. Might even be part of phase 2, if Trudeau is feeling he needs votes in the area.

The preliminary study for the Gatineau LRT won't be completed until 2020. What Gatineau is doing is (currently) completely separate from what Ottawa is doing and as of right now they hope to have something in operation by 2028.

 

[micheal_can]

The preliminary study for the Gatineau LRT won't be completed until 2020. What Gatineau is doing is (currently) completely separate from what Ottawa is doing and as of right now they hope to have something in operation by 2028.

Phase 1 will be done this year. Phase 2 is expected to open when?

 

[OCCheetos]

Phase 1 will be done this year. Phase 2 is expected to open when?

South extension in 2021
East in 2022
and West in 2023

 

[micheal_can]

The preliminary study for the Gatineau LRT won't be completed until 2020. What Gatineau is doing is (currently) completely separate from what Ottawa is doing and as of right now they hope to have something in operation by 2028.

South extension in 2021
East in 2022
and West in 2023

... and north in 2028? That really is only 10 years from now.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am assuming the Gatineau LRT will be part of phase 3 or 4. Might even be part of phase 2, if Trudeau is feeling he needs votes in the area.

... and north in 2028? That really is only 10 years from now.

First off, the Gatineau LRT is not another phase of the Ottawa’s plans. It’s the plans of a different municipality, in a different province. And it’s still early days. So who knows how their plans are going to work out. They have a rough idea. But I don’t think they’ve actually finished all the analysis yet, lined up financing, etc.

Next, there’s no “north”. The Confederation Line will be expanding East and West. And the Trillium Line will only be extending South. Stage 3 is supposed to focus on extending the branches of the Confederation Line in the West further into Kanata and into Barrhaven. There’s no talk of Stage 4 yet. And it’d be very premature to discuss that before Stage 1 is in service and before there’s even shovels in the ground for Stage 2. Who knows what funding will be available and what the priorities will be a decade from now? There’s also priorities beyond expansion. The Trillium Line will need to be double tracked at some point. They’ll need a proper connection to the airport too.

 

[micheal_can]

First off, the Gatineau LRT is not another phase of the Ottawa’s plans. It’s the plans of a different municipality, in a different province. And it’s still early days. So who knows how their plans are going to work out. They have a rough idea. But I don’t think they’ve actually finished all the analysis yet, lined up financing, etc.

Next, there’s no “north”. The Confederation Line will be expanding East and West. And the Trillium Line will only be extending South. Stage 3 is supposed to focus on extending the branches of the Confederation Line in the West further into Kanata and into Barrhaven. There’s no talk of Stage 4 yet. And it’d be very premature to discuss that before Stage 1 is in service and before there’s even shovels in the ground for Stage 2. Who knows what funding will be available and what the priorities will be a decade from now? There’s also priorities beyond expansion. The Trillium Line will need to be double tracked at some point. They’ll need a proper connection to the airport too.

I know of the things you point out. However, north is into Gatineau. I am just looking towards the future.

I am wondering if they will make up to 4 spots at Bayview. 2 for the Trillium line, 2 for the Gatineau LRT., of course the next level up, would be the 2 tracks for the Confederation Line.

 

[kEiThZ]

I know of the things you point out. However, north is into Gatineau. I am just looking towards the future.

I am wondering if they will make up to 4 spots at Bayview. 2 for the Trillium line, 2 for the Gatineau LRT., of course the next level up, would be the 2 tracks for the Confederation Line.

There’s no north extension though if the Trillium Line is not extending into Gatineau. And, as of now, there doesn’t seem to a Trillium Line extension northwards being planned. So I wouldn’t call it “north” or “phase 4”. It’s part of Gatineau’s plans which at the moment are about as firm as jello. And until there’s more details on their plans, the layout of Bayview station will be tough to determine. Heck, two tracks might be suffficient for both services, depending on frequencies.

 

[Allandale25]

And like it or not, Ontario, even under the previous regime, turned to private capital to DBFOM most of GO's expansion

For GO RER funding, what percentage is being provided by the public sector and what percentage is from the private sector count that will win the DBFOM RFP? @smallspy @alexanderglista thoughts?

 

[Allandale25]

Moose Consortium Inc. has posted online several documents relating to the Canadian Transportation Agency's determination relating to the track connecting Ottawa and Gatineau.
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/moose-co...rotect-essential-railways-in-canadas-capital/

Joseph Potvin
Director General | Directeur général
Moose Consortium (Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais: Systems & Enterprises) | www.letsgomoose.com
Consortium Moose (Mobilité Outaouais-Ottawa: Systèmes & Enterprises) | www.onyvamoose.com
joseph.potvin@letsgomoose.com
joseph.potvin@onyvamoose.com

I reviewed the documents provided in the link above. Here's a summary, where I chronologically ordered the files:

Of all the files, two stand out.

First, from the 17Aug18 Transport Canada letter to Moose, I notice the passage below. One to two years from August 17, 2018 (date of the letter) or September 14, 2018 (deadline set out by the letter) to start the processing, I wonder how far along Phase II will be. Further, it seems like a very tall order.

Second, a letter from the Railway Association of Canada supporting the City of Ottawa's case. Interesting that the railway industry association isn't supportive of Moose's plan. I seem to recall the Moose proponents saying they would contract another railway operator that has the necessary approval documentation from Transport Canada to run their service. I assume most if not all of these existing operators are members of RAC.

 

[OCCheetos]

First off, the Gatineau LRT is not another phase of the Ottawa’s plans. It’s the plans of a different municipality, in a different province. And it’s still early days. So who knows how their plans are going to work out. They have a rough idea. But I don’t think they’ve actually finished all the analysis yet, lined up financing, etc.

Next, there’s no “north”. The Confederation Line will be expanding East and West. And the Trillium Line will only be extending South. Stage 3 is supposed to focus on extending the branches of the Confederation Line in the West further into Kanata and into Barrhaven. There’s no talk of Stage 4 yet. And it’d be very premature to discuss that before Stage 1 is in service and before there’s even shovels in the ground for Stage 2. Who knows what funding will be available and what the priorities will be a decade from now? There’s also priorities beyond expansion. The Trillium Line will need to be double tracked at some point. They’ll need a proper connection to the airport too.

Jim Watson has said that he'd consider an extension of the Trillium Line into Gatineau as Stage "3B" with Kanata and Barrhaven being Stage "3A". Barrhaven is currently being studied, so I think it can be assumed Gatineau is next in the plans. And then eventually Carling, I guess (for LRT at least).