Montréal Transit Developments

[begratto]

So the government is going to subsidize $180 per rider per month? Presumably more for riders who are doing longer distances!

Yes, that's it, but this $180 subsidy not only covers the operating costs, but also the $6B construction costs, which the government didn't have to pay upfront. And it is expected that riders will pay fares similar to what they're paying now. So it's a good deal for Montrealers, really.

Simply put, the REM wouldn't get built if it had not been funded by the CDPQ.

 

[nfitz]

Yes, that's it, but this $180 subsidy not only covers the operating costs, but also the $6B construction costs, which the government didn't have to pay upfront. And it is expected that riders will pay fares similar to what they're paying now. So it's a good deal for Montrealers, really.

Ah, that changes things.

Wow $6-billion. Does that include a portion of the Champlain Bridge? It's hard to see how you'd spend that much on non-tunnelled LRT. Though the Blue Line connection must be pushing $1-billion. But much of the alignment already exists. Would be interesting to see a breakdown of where it's spent.

 

[begratto]

Ah, that changes things.

Wow $6-billion. Does that include a portion of the Champlain Bridge? It's hard to see how you'd spend that much on non-tunnelled LRT. Though the Blue Line connection must be pushing $1-billion. But much of the alignment already exists. Would be interesting to see a breakdown of where it's spent.

The $6B includes the trains, construction of the entire 68km line, including maintenance sheds, plus the purchase of the right of way (Mont-Royal tunnel, Deux-Montagnes railway right-of-way and CN viaduct south of Gare Bonaventure).

AFAIK, the CDQP doesn't have to pay for the right-of-way on the Champlain bridge and Autoroute 10 median : only the construction costs .

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

It does speak to the sheer incompetence and/or vindictiveness of the powers that be at City Hall and Queens Park that our rapid transit system could be allowed to fall to third place, and by such a large margin. We live in the largest and densest urban area in the country and one of the fastest growing. This shouldn't even be a conversation. And yet certain people on boards like this continue to make excuses.

This isn't medieval times where cities competed to have the biggest cathedral. I would actually look at the networks as a whole rather than just the subways, For example, how well is the bus service integrated with the subway system do buses serve subway station and can you easily change from one to another?

 

[44 North]

Id only agree if it had the same fare structure as the Metro.

It wont, so I consider it a separate transit network, like GO in Toronto.

AFAIK Caisse is going to be charging ARTM a fee per of 55 to 72 cents per km per passenger (exact rate changes depending on ridership). They are not directly involved in setting the fares the end users will pay.

I'm not aware of any announced changes to STMs existing fares for end users, but at 72 cents per km the government would receive a bill of ~$2.20 for the trip you describe.

Was curious whether it'd be charged different when the project was announced, but this sounds like it is. Doesn't sound good. Wonder if a similar scenario could play out for Crosstown or Finch LRT over here, e.g charging an extra $0.50 to transfer/ride.

 

[MisterF]

This isn't medieval times where cities competed to have the biggest cathedral. I would actually look at the networks as a whole rather than just the subways, For example, how well is the bus service integrated with the subway system do buses serve subway station and can you easily change from one to another?

The fact is that Montreal and Vancouver have done a great job at expanding their rapid transit systems over the last 30 years while Toronto has failed miserably. Toronto hasn't even managed to build the original three lines that were planned way back in the 1960s. As a result our transit system has never functioned as intended. Rapid transit coverage of the central part of the city is awful and so is crowding on the few lines that we have. It's not about competing with other cities; our lack of investment (and our investment in the wrong things) has had real consequences. No amount of bus integration with a barebones subway system can fix those problems.

RER will help a lot if it's actually completed. But as I said, this shouldn't even be a conversation. Our rapid transit system should be twice the length of Montreal's, not the other way around.

 

[nfitz]

Was curious whether it'd be charged different when the project was announced, but this sounds like it is. Doesn't sound good. Wonder if a similar scenario could play out for Crosstown or Finch LRT over here, e.g charging an extra $0.50 to transfer/ride.

I wouldn't think so, as the Finch and Eglinton only capital costs, and not operational costs. The cost basis isn't per rider. It's all fixed. There's no privatization of operations, and TTC will be running it - fully integrated with other TTC lines.

 

[nfitz]

The fact is that Montreal and Vancouver have done a great job at expanding their rapid transit systems over the last 30 years while Toronto has failed miserably.

This LRT is finally going ahead now in Montreal - but in the last 30 years? That from 1989? There hasn't been a single metro station open on the island of Montreal in that period of time. Nor has construction even begun. There have been at least 3 announcements though about various extension that were never built - mostly including at least one Blue line station. And two further announcements in the 20 years preceding that. Yes, they built 3 stations in Laval. Toronto has in the same time built eleven new subway stations, and is a couple of years away finishing the subway under Eglinton, extending out as LRT into Scarborough.

Montreal did excellent for about a 25-year period from the mid-1960s to late-1980s, and now seems to have got some progress again. Toronto did very well for 30 years from the early 1950s to early 1980s, and then has been doing well again since 2008, with the Line 1 extension, followed by Line 5 and Line 6, and now with both the Downtown line and another Line 1 extension looking possible over the next decade. Vancouver did very well for 35 years from 1986 to current - and perhaps that will continue if the Millennium extension to UBC and Expo line extension south proceed.

I don't see the need though, to pretend that Montreal has accomplished much at all since the late 1980s - that's 30 lost years.

 

[Steve X]

Was curious whether it'd be charged different when the project was announced, but this sounds like it is. Doesn't sound good. Wonder if a similar scenario could play out for Crosstown or Finch LRT over here, e.g charging an extra $0.50 to transfer/ride.

Half the riders will simply refuse to use the LRT and instead opt for bus service. LRTs will get even more negative presses to a point none will be construction anymore. I think REM is a little different. It's not a replacement to bus services but a new expansion where riders would likely stay on either the current network or use REM. Somewhat like the GO where most riders don't transfer between the two systems.

 

[nfitz]

It's not a replacement to bus services but a new expansion where riders would likely stay on either the current network or use REM. Somewhat like the GO where most riders don't transfer between the two systems.

Part of the reason people don't transfer as much from the existing Deux-Montagnes line, is there isn't many great transfer points. Even at Central, it's an unnecessary long and circuitous walk up and then back down into the Bonaventure Metro station, even after that new entrance was added. With the new connection to the Blue Line, and connections to McGill (is there any talk of providing a better connection into Bonaventure - surely there's a way to make a more direct connection to a couple of dedicated platforms?) that should improve - especially if the government keeps their long-promised and occasionally announced Line 2 extension only 2 stations to Bois Franc.

Anecdotally, I think there's more transfers from the Orange line at Vendome to RTM services than I see at Central - where the connection is much more convenient.

 

[doady]

Toronto has a larger subway system than Montreal, with much wider and air-conditioned trains. Toronto has a more light rail, more commuter rail, and more buses (including BRT), and transit higher ridership per capita and mode share to show for it. I can't find any evidence that Montreal's system is twice as large as Toronto's.

The STM has actually been in decline for years now because of budget cuts that resulted in 7.9% less bus service today compared to 2012.

STM bus ridership has declined by more than 13 per cent over 5 years

Despite major investments to improve the reliability and comfort of its buses, the Société de transport de Montréal has seen bus ridership plummet in the last few years, according to figures obtained by the Montreal Gazette in an access-to-information request.

The findings come as most major cities in North America are also struggling with declining or stagnating numbers. The request was for bus ridership numbers over the last 10 years, but the STM only provided data spanning 2012 to 2017, saying statistics for previous years were not available.

The findings show a steep overall decline of bus ridership by 13.32 per cent in that period, with the biggest drop in 2015, when ridership plummeted 6.38 per cent. From 2012 to 2017, the STM’s bus ridership dropped by more than 34 million trips per year.

If you look back even further to 2006, you will find that bus ridership of STM actually has declined much more than 13%. In 2006, STM buses carried 374.8 million passengers but in 2017 they carried only 271.6 million, a whopping 27.5 percent decline. Seems like the Metro extension into Laval masked some massive ridership losses on the island. But even with the Laval extension, the overall ridership of STM still declined 1.9% from 2006 to 2017.

Compare that to TTC, where bus ridership increased by a whopping 32 percent during that same time frame, from 344.8 million passengers to 456.9 million annually, while overall ridership increased 18%.

These numbers prove Mister F right about one thing: Toronto and Montreal are two cities moving in opposite directions transit-wise.

 

[begratto]

This LRT is finally going ahead now in Montreal

The REM is a metro, not a LRT. Even the CDPQ calls it a metro now. Trains are shorter than current Montreal metro trains, but will still be able to carry 600 passengers per train, every 2-3 minutes. It uses the same trains as the Copenhagen metro, and over there they don't call it LRT either.

Is there any talk of providing a better connection into Bonaventure - surely there's a way to make a more direct connection to a couple of dedicated platforms?

Yes, there is a new, more direct connection planned from the south end of the REM platform at Central Station, to the tunnel linking Place Bonaventure to métro Bonaventure station. It will be much quicker than the current circuitous path.

 

[begratto]

Toronto has a larger subway system than Montreal, with much wider and air-conditioned trains. Toronto has a more light rail, more commuter rail, and more buses (including BRT), and transit higher ridership per capita and mode share to show for it. I can't find any evidence that Montreal's system is twice as large as Toronto's.

The STM has actually been in decline for years now because of budget cuts that resulted in 7.9% less bus service today compared to 2012.

STM bus ridership has declined by more than 13 per cent over 5 years

If you look back even further to 2006, you will find that bus ridership of STM actually has declined much more than 13%. In 2006, STM buses carried 374.8 million passengers but in 2017 they carried only 271.6 million, a whopping 27.5 percent decline. Seems like the Metro extension into Laval masked some massive ridership losses on the island. But even with the Laval extension, the overall ridership of STM still declined 1.9% from 2006 to 2017.

Compare that to TTC, where bus ridership increased by a whopping 32 percent during that same time frame, from 344.8 million passengers to 456.9 million annually, while overall ridership increased 18%.

The STM's ridership has increased from 363.3M in 2016 to 429.5M in 2017, and close to 450M in 2018, although they have not published the official number AFAIK. A 24% increase from 2006 to 2018.

These numbers prove Mister F right about one thing: Toronto and Montreal are two cities moving in opposite directions transit-wise.

Not necessarily ; seems to me they're both moving in the same direction. The STM will increase its fleet by 300 buses between now and 2021, so the total fleet (not counting the suburban transit sytems) will increase from 1800 buses to ~2100. More service should help attract additional customers in the STM buses.

 

[transitguy]

I think there are 3 observations we can take away from rapid transit expansion in Vancouver and Montreal:

1. Don't over build rapid transit, build only enough to sustain what is required (ie. Canada line and REM using light metro).
2. Rapid transit should always go into or cross the core, where there is density to support ridership.
3. Public/private partnerships do work, to ensure 1) and 2) are adhered to, because no one will invest money into money losing infrastructure for the sake of politics.

 

[begratto]

I don't see the need though, to pretend that Montreal has accomplished much at all since the late 1980s - that's 30 lost years.

This I fully agree with. The future looks brighter, though!