Monorail for Toronto

[EnviroTO]

Because nobody wants the visual intrusion in Toronto. We want wires put underground and monorail infrastructure is far worse. Being in the north the amount of light reaching the street through winter is bad enough without turning our streets into a monorail underpass. Monorails only save money elevated... and we aren't building elevated LRT and we aren't building elevated subways. No money saved and no benefit. How many of these cities are putting them on attractive streets and have continental winters?

 

[Asterix]

Seriously, why has there never been monorail even looked into for Toronto? I truly do not understand the aversion to a proven technology that many cities are beginning to embrace.

How do you seriously know that planners haven't looked into monorail for Toronto? Is it not possible that it was one of the potential technologies initially considered as part of some recent large scale plan but then discarded before it got to the stage of being trumpeted in the media?

One of your regular monorail themes is how little footprint they take up. That may be true for part of the route, but you consistently ignore the stations.

Can you provide examples of minimal footprints for monorail lines that have the capacity projected for Eglinton (say, 5,000 - 10,000 per hour)? Make sure these stations are compliant with accessibility legislation such that they'll have enough elevators and escalators (to go along with traditional stairs).

Looking at the extent these sorts of elevated stations would entail, can you not see why citizens (make that 'taxpayers' in the lingo of the day) might not want such structures in their neighbourhoods? Can you understand why city planners might not think such structures are conducive to the street-level development they'd like to see?

 

[ssiguy2]

Surprisingly, I agree.
I can't think of a worse way to destroy a nice city street than having any elevated transit line and station overhead but that is not the with most of Toronto corridors. The Golden Mile and Kingston are ugly commercial and industrial stripes and contrary to what Miller and company may think that will never change.................they will never become the bohemian nirvana that Miller had wet dreams over but that's fine.
Commercial strips are just as much a part of the urban fabric as The Beaches, High Park, Queen, or Yorkville. They serve their needed function. They may not be too nice to look at but they are essential.
Vancouver was smart enough to realize this by tunneling where needed thru established urban enviornments and elevating thru commerical or new high rise districts.
Funny also that in Vancouver as opposed to the elevated train lines inhibiting residential development they encourage it. In Vancouver people can't get too close to SkyTrain. Several new towers are built literally just 50 metres away from the stations. The highest levels of condo construction across the entire metro area are all at SkyTrain stations and people love it.
The reason I prefer monorails for elevation and using rail ROW is not only due to cost savings but that they are also, due to using rubber tires, quieter and their use small support structures and the tracks themselves are much more slender. The new Bombardier monorail trains are very light weight and the pillions can therefore be just 60cm across.............very small.

 

[EnviroTO]

When you build a small thin rail and a very lightweight car then you have built a low capacity monorail. The greater the speed of a vehicle and the greater the load of that vehicle the more you require greater structural support and that increases weight. Do you want something low capacity, slow, quiet, and elevated, or something a medium capacity, medium speed, medium noise level, and at grade, or something high capacity, medium-high speed, noisy, and underground? Well I really don't see the benefit of low speed quiet and elevated.

 

[EnviroTO]

The reason I prefer monorails for elevation and using rail ROW is not only due to cost savings but that they are also, due to using rubber tires, quieter and their use small support structures and the tracks themselves are much more slender. The new Bombardier monorail trains are very light weight and the pillions can therefore be just 60cm across.............very small.

Where have you ridden one that you prefer it so much?

 

[UD2]

i'm fine with a monorail. As long as we bury it underground.

 

[ssiguy2]

That's the reason why Toronto never gets anything built.
The huge Paris expansion of 125km by 2025 of the city's Metro to serve more of the outer areas of the city will be nearly completely elevated. Few cities can afford the large underground costs of construction and even where they can nearly all cities explore elevation/at grade BEFORE they consider tunneling.

 

[rbt]

That's the reason why Toronto never gets anything built.

never? Surely you must exaggerate.

There will be 8 TBMs underground in a year for Spadina and Eglinton; some might consider that to be something.

Georgetown certainly counts as 25km of something with trains every 10 minutes.

Various BRT projects (Züm, Viva, Mississauga Transitway) also count as something (all 3 are under construction at this time).

Suburbs don't need metro for the most part at this time. They do need improvement which is what is being built.


What you've really told us is that you do not pay attention and are not aware of what is actually being done. Personally, I'll take electrification and a frequency boost on the LakeShore line (roughly 110km by itself) and this will be long complete by 2025. Does that count as new Metro (frequencies/capacity would be better than BART) and is just lowly commuter rail today.

Commuter rail is expanding by about 150km over the next few years too.

There hasn't been a time in the last 20 years when this much transit expansion has been simultaneously under construction in Toronto. Enough? No. Significant? Yes!


Next you will tell me there is never any skyscraper construction in Toronto.

 

[UD2]

That's the reason why Toronto never gets anything built.
The huge Paris expansion of 125km by 2025 of the city's Metro to serve more of the outer areas of the city will be nearly completely elevated. Few cities can afford the large underground costs of construction and even where they can nearly all cities explore elevation/at grade BEFORE they consider tunneling.

In all honesty, you have a very good point there. However the out areas of Toronto is York/Peel/Durham region.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto's 28km subway expansion by 2020 {let's face it Sheppard isn't going anywhere without huge government money which it won't get from either Ottawa or Queen's Park} and. by world standards, that is truly pathetic. Toronto should have a subway system at a minimum twice it's current size. The GO expansions are great but in reality do little for Torontonians themselves as they will not pay the large extra fares, even 10 minute service is not good enough, and they are essentially for 9 to 5 commuters. They provide no service for people going across town and are useless as a DRL. The ARL is for travellers and business people who get a tax right off not for the people who need to get to Pearson for work.
Until the lines are electrified and turned into part of the metro/subway system itself, and have a standard TTC fare within the boundaries of Toronto they are 905 commuter routes.
Sao Paulo did this very effectively with 2 of it's suburban {aka GO} lines. They run almost the same route using the same track but built more stops for the metro line to stop at and there is no extra suburban fare added on. Think of it as a Georgetown line from Union to Etobiko North station but add 5 or 6 new stations. The metro stops at those stations at metro level service frequencies.

 

[nfitz]

Toronto's 28km subway expansion by 2020 {let's face it Sheppard isn't going anywhere without huge government money which it won't get from either Ottawa or Queen's Park} and. by world standards, that is truly pathetic.

The only thing that is truly pathetic is the endless obsessive whining about monorails, while we are undergoing the largest transit expansion in Toronto in a generation.

 

[ssiguy2]

This is the largest expansion in a generation but in terms of Toronto that means little.
In the last 20 years Toronto has only expanded it's system by 8km.

 

[nfitz]

This is the largest expansion in a generation but in terms of Toronto that means little.

We currently have only about 70 km of rapid transit built over the last 60 years. We're looking at about 30 to 40 km of expansion with the Spadina Line, Yonge Line, and Eglinton line - more in the unlikely the Sheppard line is expanded. At the same time we are looking at very frequent service on several GO lines within the next decade. To suggest that this means little only demonstrates your ignorance.

In the last 20 years Toronto has only expanded it's system by 8km.

The Barrie extension alone was far more than 8 km.

How much has New York City expanded it's commuter network in the last 20 years?

 

[rbt]

Toronto's 28km subway expansion by 2020 {let's face it Sheppard isn't going anywhere without huge government money which it won't get from either Ottawa or Queen's Park}.

No, Sheppard isn't going anywhere which is why I didn't include it. Spadina is 8km and Eglinton is about 20km of new line (plus 5km of substantially upgraded line).

The GO expansions are great but in reality do little for Torontonians themselves as they will not pay the large extra fares, even 10 minute service is not good enough, and they are essentially for 9 to 5 commuters.

I'm confused. Paris, is extremely small, so small that even La Defense is NOT a part of Paris. Paris is getting very little Metro over the next 15 years. Not too different than Vancouver in that regard (what 5km of Metro over the last 25 years built in the Municipality of Vancouver?).

Either service in suburbs is useful or not. Residents of York/Durham/Peel regions are every bit as much residents of Toronto as the folks in La Defense are residents of Paris; and the expansion in those areas will be very useful to the residents of the Toronto area and the Toronto economic zone. GO expansion has a direct and positive impact on downtown.

To believe that 905 areas (or 705 and 519 at this point) are not part of Toronto doesn't reflect the populous here. It's no different than Queens being a part of New York, than La Defense being a part of Paris, than Burnaby being a part of Vancouver, or than Oakland being a part of San Francisco.

Incidentally, Sydney would be very surprised if you told them they didn't have a useful Metro and a good chunk of Germany would swat you if you told them the S-Bahn was useless to urban residents.

Washington DC and San Francisco would also be surprised to hear that 10 to 15 minute frequencies disqualify them from having a Metro. Montreal would have been surprised too not all that long ago.

FYI, LakeShore West already runs ~10 minute frequencies (scattered; 11 trains between 4pm and 6pm). Electrification would be to bring this down under 5. The 10 to 15 minute number I quoted was off-peak service; very common within North American metros including New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles in addition to those mentioned above.

 

[ssiguy2]

I already said the GO expansion was great but it's not rapid transit. Rapid transit comes every 3 minutes and most importantly you don't pay an extra fare to go the same distance.
Until the GO within the city of Toronto boundaries is made part of the standard TTC fare then it is a commuter only system. That is fine as it serves that segment well but offers little to the average city dweller going across town or wants to get somewhere quick without paying twice the fare.
All the frequencies in the world won't make the GO Georgetown a DRL at Dundas West.