Hipster Duck
Senior Member
double post
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Miscellany Toronto Photographs: Then and Now
- Thread starter Mustapha
- Start date
thecharioteer
Senior Member
It's also interesting to look at the attitudes to preservation in the four King/Bay bank developments.
The earliest of the developments, the TD Centre (first tower completed in 1967), eliminates all the buildings on the lot, though the Bank of Toronto Building could have been retained without affecting the site plan or locations of the towers.
The second development, Commerce Court, (1972) retains the 1930 Bank of Commerce Building, which becomes an integral element in the site plan.
Subsequently, First Canadian Place, is announced in 1972, the same year David Crombie becomes mayor. Ironically, as the first major development under the auspices of the new reform council, it is a step backwords in terms of historic preservation, demolishing The Toronto Star Building, the Globe and Mail Building and the Bank of Montreal (which could have been retained on the King/Bay corner without affecting the towers).
The final corner, Scotia Plaza, was proposed and designed in the early 1980's and finished in 1988. It's not exactly accurate, adma, to say that there was little to destroy on site. There was the 1951 Bank of Nova Scotia Building, which the developer Robert Campeau could have proposed demolishing. However between the time of FCP and SP, the zoning world had changed as a result of the implementation of the new Central Area Plan (i.e.Official Plan). For the first time, the gross floor area of a designated historic building could be exempted from density calculations, a huge advantage under a planning regime that allowed a maximum of 12.0X coverage in the Financial District. In a sense, the GFA of the old building became "free", and the 12.0X coverage could be used totally in the new tower.
I think it would be fair to say, that if these "bonuses" had existed in the 70's, the development of the FCP block could have been very different, with at least the Bank of Montreal building integrated into the plan. No developer likes to turn down "free" density. Urbanistically, what a different the retention of that building would have made to the Bay Street "canyon" and to King.
The earliest of the developments, the TD Centre (first tower completed in 1967), eliminates all the buildings on the lot, though the Bank of Toronto Building could have been retained without affecting the site plan or locations of the towers.
The second development, Commerce Court, (1972) retains the 1930 Bank of Commerce Building, which becomes an integral element in the site plan.
Subsequently, First Canadian Place, is announced in 1972, the same year David Crombie becomes mayor. Ironically, as the first major development under the auspices of the new reform council, it is a step backwords in terms of historic preservation, demolishing The Toronto Star Building, the Globe and Mail Building and the Bank of Montreal (which could have been retained on the King/Bay corner without affecting the towers).
The final corner, Scotia Plaza, was proposed and designed in the early 1980's and finished in 1988. It's not exactly accurate, adma, to say that there was little to destroy on site. There was the 1951 Bank of Nova Scotia Building, which the developer Robert Campeau could have proposed demolishing. However between the time of FCP and SP, the zoning world had changed as a result of the implementation of the new Central Area Plan (i.e.Official Plan). For the first time, the gross floor area of a designated historic building could be exempted from density calculations, a huge advantage under a planning regime that allowed a maximum of 12.0X coverage in the Financial District. In a sense, the GFA of the old building became "free", and the 12.0X coverage could be used totally in the new tower.
I think it would be fair to say, that if these "bonuses" had existed in the 70's, the development of the FCP block could have been very different, with at least the Bank of Montreal building integrated into the plan. No developer likes to turn down "free" density. Urbanistically, what a different the retention of that building would have made to the Bay Street "canyon" and to King.
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Goldie
Senior Member
Bank of Toronto at the Guild
My favourite artifact at the Guild Inn is the preserved entrance to the Bank of Toronto. A truly wonderful piece of architecture!
My favourite artifact at the Guild Inn is the preserved entrance to the Bank of Toronto. A truly wonderful piece of architecture!
Attachments
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Even though the Registry Building was replaced by a parking garage entrance and some of the forlorn grassy periphery west of NPS and not the actual City Hall?
adma
Superstar
Okay, first this quote
And now, this quote.
While I might have strategically overplayed the "cheese" epithet, I feel you're also rather parochially overstating Scotia Plaza's merits relative to the bigger picture, simply because it "really gets you going". Because as far as I'm concerned, the above two quotations effectively cancel each other out. Not that Scotia is altogether undistinguished; but rather that all in all, as I see it, it's no more "out of the ordinary" relative to its time as the Bank of Toronto is relative to its time. It's high-grade WZMH Corporate Postmodern of the 1980s much as Royal Bank Plaza is high-grade WZMH Corporate Late Modernism (or Proto-Postmodernism) of the 1970s, or the Bank of Toronto was high-grade Carrere & Hastings Corporate Beaux-Arts Classical of the 1910s. (Or Bay-Adelaide is high-grade WZMH Corporate Retro-Modernism of the 2000s.) It only seems otherwise because it's by far the most physically dominant of its chronological/functional/stylistic sort in Toronto, and because you're a Torontonian--if it seems up there with the biggies elsewhere, it's a little by default. (The one thing of its rough time comparable in scale is BCE which, thanks to Calatrava, probably ranks genuinely higher on a world-class scale--and with the "world-class" element of Calatrava, we're veering away from the Postmodern aesthetic, anyway.)
And now, this quote.
While I might have strategically overplayed the "cheese" epithet, I feel you're also rather parochially overstating Scotia Plaza's merits relative to the bigger picture, simply because it "really gets you going". Because as far as I'm concerned, the above two quotations effectively cancel each other out. Not that Scotia is altogether undistinguished; but rather that all in all, as I see it, it's no more "out of the ordinary" relative to its time as the Bank of Toronto is relative to its time. It's high-grade WZMH Corporate Postmodern of the 1980s much as Royal Bank Plaza is high-grade WZMH Corporate Late Modernism (or Proto-Postmodernism) of the 1970s, or the Bank of Toronto was high-grade Carrere & Hastings Corporate Beaux-Arts Classical of the 1910s. (Or Bay-Adelaide is high-grade WZMH Corporate Retro-Modernism of the 2000s.) It only seems otherwise because it's by far the most physically dominant of its chronological/functional/stylistic sort in Toronto, and because you're a Torontonian--if it seems up there with the biggies elsewhere, it's a little by default. (The one thing of its rough time comparable in scale is BCE which, thanks to Calatrava, probably ranks genuinely higher on a world-class scale--and with the "world-class" element of Calatrava, we're veering away from the Postmodern aesthetic, anyway.)
Mustapha
Senior Member
I miss the orange colour cars that were so fashionable in the 70s. Would love someday to get a old Porsche 911, pre-bumper regulations.
October 26 addition.
Took these pics awhile back but they seem to be topical, so I've moved them up to today.
adma
Superstar
Well, it would have affected the site plan in one critical way: the present banking pavilion wouldn't exist, at least not in its present configuration. It's not that the complex would have been worse without the old B of T; just that it would have been "different".
Then again, the tallest-in-the-Empire skyscraper scale of the 1930 building would have made demolition an inadvisably diceyer option here than with the low-rise Bank of Toronto, anyway. As a result, I personally feel the "preservationist" impulse behind Commerce Court is overrated; or at least, the art is more in how they integrated CCN into the complex, than in the fact that they retained it at all. (And other than CCN, everything else "of age" on the site was demolished--not that it was on a level equal to the Bank of Toronto; but, still, imagine if the scheme went through in 2009 rather than 1969.)
I'd rather view FCP in terms of last-of-the-old and a fait accompli by the time that Crombie took power (late in the year, remember), even if most of the actual demolitions happened during Crombie's regime. And if one must play devil's advocate a la Hipster Duck, Toronto Star was "lesser stuff" than Commerce Court North, anyway.
True, one can give due credit to the dry truth of zoning-bonus acrobatics; but symbiotically speaking, it proved how the notion of heritage became "good business" by the 1980s, to the point where from a good-corporate-citizen standpoint, it was all but inconceivable that the old Scotia would have been demolished without a fight under any circumstance (even if--lest we forget--it was only as old as Commerce Court is now). Of course, looking at facadectomies elsewhere on the Scotia block, it was also a moment when heritage came to be trivialized in the name of "good business", too.
And when it comes down to the what-coulda-beens re the FCP block, IMO it would have seemed painfully token and self-serving to only retain the old Bank of Montreal, while letting the Star and the Globe go...
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Goldie
Senior Member
adma
Superstar
Distillery District.
thecharioteer
Senior Member
Great discussion, guys!
Here's a picture of the SE corner of King & Bay 1965. No real point to make in terms of architecture or urbanism. Love the picture of the woman though; kind of a Eve Arden meets "Mad Men" vibe:
Here's a picture of the SE corner of King & Bay 1965. No real point to make in terms of architecture or urbanism. Love the picture of the woman though; kind of a Eve Arden meets "Mad Men" vibe:
junctionist
Senior Member
The compact traffic signals and signs beside them indicating which ways of driving are acceptable which I see in some of the old King and Bay photos are what seem to immediately distinguish scenes of downtown Montreal today from Toronto.
Personally I like the compact signals and would like to see them return in black form, but I think this is a matter of provincial regulation.
Personally I like the compact signals and would like to see them return in black form, but I think this is a matter of provincial regulation.
N
nfoman
Guest
Just did a search and the company, Club Coffee Company is still around, coolio
condovo
Senior Member
I just want to reiterate that I think this is a truly sublime thread. I`m learning enormously about my adopted city and about issues of preservation vs. demolition/renewal. Thank you all for your wonderful contributions.
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Goldie
Senior Member
Details in photos
Other than 'Eve Arden', this photo seems to feature an image of a TTC transfer in the immediate foreground! I wonder why?
Other than 'Eve Arden', this photo seems to feature an image of a TTC transfer in the immediate foreground! I wonder why?
Mustapha
Senior Member
I remember the 'wobble' of non-radial tires on streetcar tracked Toronto streets.. thanks for the memory.
Just did a search and the company, Club Coffee Company is still around, coolio
I do this sort of thing too.
You're welcome, and I wish I could join in on some of the conversations such as the most recent one about the St. Lawrence area. Alas I have to stay mute - it's not my area of training.
An unused transfer - perhaps the bearer changed their mind about their route..
I love the wacky composition of this photo. It's not level, the foreground is in perfect focus and 'Ms Arden' and all the men in hats look like a motion picture still.
October 27 addition.
Arose and breakfasted. Ablutions and thence camera in hand to what was Small's Pond. It was located just to the NE of Coxwell and Queen. Divers pictures follow. Was a busy day, so afterwards to supper and bed.
More here.
http://www.beachmetro.com/news8.1.html
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