Miller will not be running for Mayor, How will this affect Public Transit?

[paul]

The only parts of Toronto that are dense enough to support subway are the old City of Toronto, York, and East York. They are the only parts of the city that have comparable density to the vaunted asian cities that people often bring up as being profitable operations.

What about Hamburg and Munich in Germany? Both have less population than Toronto but 150% the total local rail (measured in terms of both stations and length).

 

[gweed123]

I would just like to point something out that has been mentioned several times in this post, and has been the assumption of much of the "subways cost too much, and would provide great service to 1 area of the city, but leave the rest of the city high and dry when it comes to transit improvements, given the limited budget":

Subways don't have to be tunnelled. I know, it's a radical concept, but if you build it in the right places (the Richview corridor, for example, or the rail corridors), you can get HRT for even less than the cost of in-median LRT.

It's not a debate between the cost of subway vs LRT, it's a debate between the costs of tunnelled vs in-median vs dedicated ROW.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

scaberian needs to chill with his sarcasm regarding cafes and youth improvement.

It's not sarcasm...that's actually what they're working towards and they think it'll happen with LRT lines and not with subways or buses. They're wrong, though, since their vision depends wholly on things like rezoning and is not dependent on transit.

Basically every bus stop in the entire city has a small line of riders waiting around 8am, and every bus route leaves dozens of people behind on the sidewalk when schools let out. There's busier and more congested places than Sheppard & Morningside that will remain untouched even after the Transit City Bus Plan. Many of those students along Sheppard will be gone before the LRT is built. There's enough land left along Sheppard out there to build maybe a few hundred houses around Conlins, but that will be cancelled out by population losses that have already started. There isn't even an express branch out there. If you think Sheppard around Morningside is bad, you should get around more of the city.

 

[GenerationW]

Its not as easy as just asking for the same dollars for subways instead of Transit City LRT... the current political climate outside of Quebec is not favorable to subway funding.

The City got funding for the Sheppard LRT (including from Ottawa) fairly quickly, so where is it written subways can't get funding? But the reality is that the City, as currently led, has no interest in more subways.

 

[nfitz]

The City got funding for the Sheppard LRT (including from Ottawa) fairly quickly, so where is it written subways can't get funding? But the reality is that the City, as currently led, has no interest in more subways.

This is the same city that just authorized the pre-design of the Yonge subway assessment, $5-million of their own money on the environmental assessment for the downtown relief line, is going ahead with the Spadina subway extension, and the subway down Eglinton?

 

[Paleo]

What about Hamburg and Munich in Germany? Both have less population than Toronto but 150% the total local rail (measured in terms of both stations and length).

I'm not familiar with those systems. Do they run all day at 5 minute frequencies minimum? How heavily subsidized are those systems? (Munich appears to be more dense than Toronto, Hamburg much less, if Wikipedia information is accurate)

 

[kEiThZ]

This is the same city that just authorized the pre-design of the Yonge subway assessment, $5-million of their own money on the environmental assessment for the downtown relief line, is going ahead with the Spadina subway extension, and the subway down Eglinton?

Yep. No subways for inner suburban residents. They get second class middle speed LRTs while trendy downtown neighbourhoods and 905ers get subways. Wonderful deal.

He's not wrong to say they aren't interested in subways. He should have caveated it more. They aren't interested in subways that benefit the bulk of their suburban residents. Perhaps instead of a RT extension, Scarborough should push for a line to Pickering or Markham. That might be the only way the Bloor-Danforth line will get extended.

 

[kEiThZ]

Acetradamus,

I was raised in and have lived in Malvern for nearly 2 decades. So I am fully aware of the character of the neighbourhood, its people, its traffic patterns and its commuting patterns. And I'll still stand by original assertion that Malvern is not congested. Using rush hour an example is deplorable analysis. Can you show me a major artery in this city that does not have busy streets and buses at that hour? And if you think Sheppard and Meadowvale is busy at that hour, than you certainly haven't been around the city enough. Heck, go down the street to Steeles and Markham at that time if you want to see busy.

A fix for that should not require billion dollar LRTs. The problems you cite can be fixed quite easily. Overcrowding can be addressed with a few more buses or by deploying articulated buses. And transit speeds can be improved by building bus lanes. Keep in mind that you are in the minority here. The majority of commuters from Malvern are heading to the core. For them a combination of a Bloor-Danforth extension to Scarborough Town, bus lanes on Sheppard and a Progress LRT from STC to Malvern would have served Malvern significantly better than the SELRT. As a bonus it would also significantly speed up rides likes yours and would have done it at a fraction of the cost. And if we could have diverted some funds on extending the Sheppard line, that would have significantly helped you too. Since the subway is nearly twice as fast as the bus, even a short subway extension would have had a significant impact on total travel time…especially when combined with buses traveling on reserved lanes.

 

[Ansem]

Keithz... I take the 85 sheppard bus everyday during rush hours, and off-peak from Meadowvale to Don Mills and back. It's incorrect for you to say the whole of Sheppard East is not congested, simply because traffic east of Markham Rd isn't. Thats pretty much self explanatory once you consider Rouge Park and Malvern with its relatively high proportion of green space begin to eliminate much of the useable land once you pass Markham Rd. Also there is still a ton of undeveloped land between Sheppard Ave and the 401 between Morningside and Meadowvale.

I probably got the most experience travelling the Sheppard corridor than anybody else on this forum. I've been taking the 85/Sheppard Subway/196B route to York for the past 5 years. I average about 25-35 trips per week along Sheppard of various distances, mostly the entire route (Meadowvale to Don Mills) and at all times throughout the day.

I can tell you that in the winter (normal conditions) traffic westbound is stop and go at Meadowvale from about 730/745am - 845am.

During the school year every westbound bus between 715am - 830am is at capacity either just before or after Neilson Rd. If the bus is coming from Rouge Hill, it is completely filled by Morningside. I board at Dean Park and there are easily lines of 15+ people building up every few minutes at peak times. The stops between Meadowvale and Conlins Rd average close to 10 people per stop, and this is with frequent service. It may look like a low density area from Google Maps but that doesn't tell you anything about the people living there... 97% visible minorities and tons of youth... minorities who can afford new houses in the 416 are definetly working people (a lot of them are going downtown) and certainly don't shy from transit (if you take the bus regularly in northeast Scarborough, you will understand that passengers are atleast 90% visible minority). There is no high school in walking distance east of Morningside Ave, you got kids trying to get to about 5 high schools and young people going Seneca@Don Mills, Centennial, and YorkU.

The buses leave people at the stops. There is no relief until McCowan, when a good 30-40% of the passengers get off. If you live between Markham Rd and McCowan, you are watching multiple buses leave you at the your stop. Congestion is very real along the majority of Sheppard Ave during the morning rush and renders travel times by transit extremely unreasonable for such a major corridor.

The transit plan that makes the most sense for Sheppard is extend the subway along Sheppard to Agincourt GO and then south to STC. LRT or some form of upgraded bus system (express buses, brt lanes, signal priority) would be good enough for the remainder of Sheppard.

Still... I respect Miller and I am satisfied with the Sheppard LRT as currently planned because at the bare minimum, transit will no longer be enslaved by road congestion during peak hours. I recognize the need for faster trips along some kind of northern 416 east-west corridor, but I feel the majority of long distance trips in the future will still be downtown oriented. Sheppard corridor trips will be well served by the LRT, although it could have been done cheaper with true BRT.

agreed a 100%

Let's not forget Sheppard West. The hole between Sheppard-Yonge and Downsview will be even more ridiculous when the spadina extension opens. With no plans for Sheppard west beside the transit city bus that will provide extra 84 buses and express...that woun't change anything.

The traffic is to heavy and there are line of buses waiting at the light to get to downsview. Between Dowsview and Sheppard-Yonge, Sheppard Avenue West only have 2 lanes in each directions. Since LRT wont make it there, the only alternative is Downsview to STC.

 

[SimonP]

A good warning about what can happen is Ottawa. Last election Larry O'Brien argued that the light rail project was a waste of money. Despite $50 million having been invested, he immediately scrapped it upon being elected. Since the contracts with the builders were already signed the city now has to pay another $30 million for breaking them.

Ottawa has seen no real investments in transit over O'Brien's time in office. No money from the feds or province. His only legacy so far was a two month long strike that won no major concessions.

 

[Ansem]

Yep. No subways for inner suburban residents. They get second class middle speed LRTs while trendy downtown neighbourhoods and 905ers get subways. Wonderful deal.

He's not wrong to say they aren't interested in subways. He should have caveated it more. They aren't interested in subways that benefit the bulk of their suburban residents. Perhaps instead of a RT extension, Scarborough should push for a line to Pickering or Markham. That might be the only way the Bloor-Danforth line will get extended.

This is the main flaw in Miller's vision of Toronto transit...
It's like he thinks that ''RAPID TRANSIT'' between Toronto inner suburbs are not required and important and not required... I think many on this board needs to see what is North York Center and what he has become... and still growing. I said it many time when I moved to Toronto, Yonge Street between Sheppard and Finch looks like Rene-Levesque in Montreal where most of the skyscarpers are. It's almost the same and I work there. There are so many jobs there...It's nothing less than a true downtown minus the malls, boutiques, clubs.

It's a horrible mistake not to at least link it to STC and Jane...

Yes I said it...Sheppard-Jane would attract a underestimated HUGE amount of commuters would choose to go the Spadina ine instead of taking the Jane bus to go downtown...

Those working at NYC or STC would get there faster than transfering 3,4 and 5 times... Uniting a city is as important than just looking at numbers and stats. It's needed...Period
When Miller designed Transit City, it really shows he doesn't know North Toronto and not aware of the reality here.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'm not familiar with those systems. Do they run all day at 5 minute frequencies minimum? How heavily subsidized are those systems? (Munich appears to be more dense than Toronto, Hamburg much less, if Wikipedia information is accurate)

Munich has stations that would give TTC stations like Glencairn a run for their money, and I'm sure Hamburg does, too.

 

[Ansem]

A good warning about what can happen is Ottawa. Last election Larry O'Brien argued that the light rail project was a waste of money. Despite $50 million having been invested, he immediately scrapped it upon being elected. Since the contracts with the builders were already signed the city now has to pay another $30 million for breaking them.

Ottawa has seen no real investments in transit over O'Brien's time in office. No money from the feds or province. His only legacy so far was a two month long strike that won no major concessions.

He was right to scrap it. It was a ''glorified streetcar'' mixed with traffic. Now they are studying a subway LRT in the bus transitway instead.

Even I think that Sheppard East LRT should exist...until Agincourt. Have the subway from Agincourt to STC. They don't have to cancel anything, just upgrade it and modify it.

I have no problem with rest of Transit city.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Even I think that Sheppard East LRT should exist...until Agincourt. Have the subway from Agincourt to STC. They don't have to cancel anything, just upgrade it and modify it.

Hey, now this is the kind of proposal that could actually get some traction. It's fair, it's workable, and it's sensible. I think you'd find far more support for this than you would for the past "just cancel it!" proposals started on this board.

 

[kEiThZ]

A good warning about what can happen is Ottawa. Last election Larry O'Brien argued that the light rail project was a waste of money. Despite $50 million having been invested, he immediately scrapped it upon being elected. Since the contracts with the builders were already signed the city now has to pay another $30 million for breaking them.

Ottawa has seen no real investments in transit over O'Brien's time in office. No money from the feds or province. His only legacy so far was a two month long strike that won no major concessions.

BS. The province just came out and said that the original 200 million for the old plan in Ottawa was a "downpayment" and the feds have reiterated that more is available for them. Everyone keeps repeating the disinformation from O'Brien's opponents without assessing their validity.

Moreover the old plan in Ottawa was BS. If anybody thinks Transit City has flaws how about a plan that completely misses the bulk of riders and has a third of its length through the greenbelt. On top of it all, they were planning on running LRTs every 90 seconds through the core. In essence, they were going to trade bus congestion for tram congestion on their street just to save a few bucks. For all his failings O'Brien has had absolutely sound policies and thinking on transit. He had the sense to not throw good money after bad. I only wish that politicians in Toronto had such courage.