CapitalSeven
Senior Member
The DRL is needed semi-urgently as far as Danforth. Eglinton & Don Mills is a reasonable medium-term goal. Pushing it to Finch is a fantasy, neither urgent nor realistic.
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Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)
- Thread starter Le Gique
- Start date
The DRL is needed semi-urgently as far as Danforth. Eglinton & Don Mills is a reasonable medium-term goal. Pushing it to Finch is a fantasy, neither urgent nor realistic.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Not "a project", but this particular project. It has become highly controversial and therefore carries a much higher risk of cancellation if the political landscape changes.
If this project was critically important from the network perspective, I would understand that it has to go ahead in spite of risks. But so far the only rationale that I heard and that is particular to the SELRT project is that it will block Ford's attempt to extend the subway; I don't think that is a good rationale at all. Otherwise, it is a project of local significance; yes it will help some riders, but spending the money in other ways will help some riders, too.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Finch West funding should not be redirected to Sheppard. Any solution for Sheppard should be based on SELRT funding plus whatever the City can raise, without pillaging the Provincial funding designated for the 3 other Transit City lines.
nfitz
Superstar
There's been a lot of other rationales presented in this thread over the years. One big one, is that the subway was only ever planned to go 5 km down Sheppard; while the LRT goes over 14.5 km - almost 3 times the distance. Better yet, based on recent TTC estimates, the funding that is available currently only get's the subway 1.8 km to Victoria Park instead of the 12.8 km to Conlins Road - over 7 times further (BTW, someone here asked previously for the proof that subway is 7 times more expensive than LRT - look no further).
Blocking Ford has nothing to do with it. Ford's pretty impotent these days ... I don't think anyone is inventing projects just to spite him. This project was long-funded before anyone every thought it was possible anyone as incompetent as Rob Ford could ever be elected!
To be fair, is there really any solid rationale of having any type of rapid transit out to Conlins Rd, aside from maybe improved bus service? The ridership on any line out there (be it subway or even LRT) is going to be piss poor.
All Sheppard east of McCowan needs is improved bus service, anything else is overkill. 3,500 pphpd in 2031 at the western section of line isn't really a ringing endorsement for spending nearly a billion dollars on an LRT. What is the peak period ridership going to be around McCowan, 1,500 pphpd? If that? What's the ridership going to be at Morningside, 200 pphpd?
I realize that the ends of any line are going to get less ridership than the busiest sections (pretty much by definition), but when the ridership near the end of the line is a rounding error away from 0 in the grand scheme of things, it isn't worth it.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Completely agree!
In fact, based on the the number of people I see use the #85 Bus weekdays between 10AM and 1PM and between Meadowvale and Markham Roads, the buses are just fine
Put in a few queue jump lanes at busy intersections, and maybe get a few articulated buses to run that route, and you should have all the capacity and efficiency you need.
The biggest problem area on Sheppard East is from Victoria Park to Don Mills. If that can be bypassed, buses should do fine east of there.
Solid Snake
Active Member
Which is why I was so pissed at Webster arrogant answer to Conc.Del Grande's question: Are there any plans to connect Sheppard east "in whatever form that may be" to the Scarborough Town Centre?
Webster just coldly answered: There's no plans to go to STC. People would have to get off and transfer to a bus to go to STC.
That's effective transit planning???
I hate the way he was fired because that made him look like a martyr but change was way overdue in TTC way of thinking about planning and project management
Solid Snake
Active Member
Which is why SELRT is a bad idea. Way too overpriced for what it is. The tunnel to Victoria Park will have to get done regardless of the technology. You wouldn't need additional subway trains built to operate an extra 2 stations to Vic Park. East of there should be BRT until a stable fundin strategy is there to extend the line to STC.
Bingo. Tunnel to Victoria Park, queue jump lanes east of Vic Park out to Meadowvale.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
how long would one have to wait for the SELRT to arrive at their stop?
Depends on how big of an operating deficit the SELRT wants to run, especially off-peak.
Solid Snake
Active Member
By the way, Metrolinx and the province is sending a very dangerous message out there. We already know that the province will support the will of Council which pretty much confirms that Metrolinx has no power or won't assume it.
If SELRT construction does not starts by Fall 2014, a new mayor or reelected Ford could just make damn sure that council kill it and we would be back to square one since the Province would follow council like a broken record. Might be why the mayor is so calm about it?
If SELRT construction does not starts by Fall 2014, a new mayor or reelected Ford could just make damn sure that council kill it and we would be back to square one since the Province would follow council like a broken record. Might be why the mayor is so calm about it?
Rainforest
Senior Member
I didn't say other rationales do not exist or were not presented; merely that "the Ford thing" is the only posted rationale particular to this project. All other rationales could apply to a number of alternative corridors as well.
Furthermore, if the subway goes 5 km down Sheppard, it does not prevent building surface ROW transit east of that point.
We did not see the Vic Park estimate in any written form yet; is it really expected to cost $1 billion, or Stinz just floated the upper bound to initiate the debate. Furthermore, a short 2-km extension is likely to have a higher per-km cost than a longer line, because of the higher proportion of the launch site cost and the new large bus terminal.
Comparing apples to apples (say, TYSSE to Finch LRT, but with allowance for Finch being built several years later), the factor is about 4 or 5 (but not 7).
nfitz
Superstar
Good questions.
It would appear that way. Though I'm not sure why the Metrolinx estimates for Finch come in higher per km than Sheppard East, given the Sheppard East project needs all the tunnel between Consumers Drive to Don Mills, large-scale modifications to Don Mills station, the grade-separation at Agincourt, and an extra large yard, because the majority of it is actually for the SRT. It's not that I think Sheppard East is high ... I've never understood why Finch West is even higher, without those issues.
Presumably in the upcoming report to Council we'll see some better apples-to-apples costing.