Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[BurlOak]

I think the amount was $333M.

 

[44 North]

There was too much talk of Sheppard subway/LRT in another thread (SRT) so I decided to revive this one. I do not think anyone has ever advocated a Sheppard subway be extended anywhere beyond STC or Sheppard/McCowan, depending on the routing of the transit line from the south. Even extending the SRT to the Zoo has never been proposed.

What might be usefull is for the Sheppard subway to be extended from STC to Downsview. Everything is a bang-for-the-buck calculation, so what I want to know is what is the cheapest that the transit line can be built for, and then what are the marginal costs to improve the service.

For the Barrie GO line, I saw options for cost ranging from $150M for elevated to $600M for trenched. Similar numbers for Sheppard would be nice. Then it can be said that yes, we will extend Sheppard, but not the Cadillac version.

The talk on the SRT thread in the last few months, and some of the talk in the DRL thread, has really made me reconsider my support for the current SELRT. Years back I viewed Transit City as absolutely perfect, but obviously there were problems with it and (IMO) much of it was rushed. With regards to the Sheppard corridor, I really think converting the tunnel for LRT is a great idea that should be pursued. And if not, then possibly a subway extension to Vic Park.

One of my issues at the moment is that if the RH corridor is upgraded, then anyone coming from the east along Sheppard and wanting to go s/b would have to transfer at Don Mills, ride one stop, then go south at Leslie/Oriole. I think it'd be more optimal to have Sheppard like Eglinton, with one light rail line.

But personally I'm not supportive of extending Sheppard west of Yonge. Though if you were interested in the numbers, this Metrolinx chart shows the costs of the differing modes. I think this city/region would be wise to start considering light metro for many corridors. Half the price of a subway, but exactly the same service/speed/reliability. Not to mention similar capacity. And plus, the whole thing doesn't have to be elevated.

I was just thinking about the Federal government money that was committed to Sheppard.

I think it was around $600M. Has there been any discussion in the media on what's happening with it? It is just sitting in trust until Sheppard is (might be) built in 2022 (could be wrong on that date). Or will the new Federal government quietly re-allocate it due to lobbying from the City (IE to Smart Track)?

Yeah, I have no idea where it went. I'd like to know. Originally I thought it went to the Agincourt grade-separation, but that only cost something like $40M.

 

[Rainforest]

What might be usefull is for the Sheppard subway to be extended from STC to Downsview. Everything is a bang-for-the-buck calculation, so what I want to know is what is the cheapest that the transit line can be built for, and then what are the marginal costs to improve the service.

That would be useful. But the city cannot afford to build two subways into Scarborough, while the much needed DRL remains unfunded.

I feel that now Sheppard corridor has only two options that are technically, financially, and politically viable. Either Sheppard E LRT now, with a somewhat annoying transfer at Don Mills, but resulting in substantial improvements for the eastern and north-eastern areas of Scarborough. Or, deferring capital investments in this corridor, transferring the bulk of funding somewhere else, and perhaps adding more express buses on Sheppard. Then, Sheppard my be re-assessed in 20 or 30 years, once DRL is done. Maybe, the ridership counts will look better for the subway at that time.

Btw, Sheppard E LRT funds could pay for extending Eglinton LRT to the airport. Or, they could pay for Waterfront East LRT, plus closing the gap of Finch LRT (Keele to Yonge).

For the Barrie GO line, I saw options for cost ranging from $150M for elevated to $600M for trenched. Similar numbers for Sheppard would be nice. Then it can be said that yes, we will extend Sheppard, but not the Cadillac version.

Could you please elaborate, which part of GO Barrie line has recently been upgraded, or is about to be upgraded? And, are those quoted costs per km, or for the whole project?

 

[Allandale25]

I think the amount was $333M.

You're right. It was/is $333M.

The most recent article I could find on it is from the Subway/LRT debate where the City Manager confirmed it had to be used for Sheppard. I guess we'll have to see if there is any update on this in 2016.

 

[crs1026]

But personally I'm not supportive of extending Sheppard west of Yonge.

How do you feel about extending the Finch LRT east to Yonge?

I'm still hung up on the "Big U" approach which constrains transit across the top of the city. If you look at the ridership stats, the combination of Steeles, Finch, and Sheppard all show up very high in the TTC's "Top 30" ridership stats. It sure seems that people do cross the top of the city. And the arterial roads are very busy.

I don't have a single favourite solution, but I would argue that there is a need emerging up there. The potential for development at the VMC to feed both jobs and daytime/weekend ridership up that way seems to suggest that ridership will grow, which argues for a connection to TYSSE from the east. Imagine what better transit across any of those three routes would do for York University students, which is a huge daily ridership.

- Paul

All-Day Typical Business Day Ridership for Surface Routes
Listed in Descending Order of Ridership (Boardings)
As of: as of March 1, 2014
All-day
Rank Route # Route Name Ridership
1 504 King 64,579
2 32 Eglinton West 48,684
3 35 Jane 45,699
4 36 Finch West 43,952
5 510 Spadina 43,804
6 501 Queen 43,464
7 29 Dufferin 39,721
8 506 Carlton 39,601
9 25 Don Mills 39,066
10 512 St. Clair 38,113
11 54 Lawrence East 36,277
12 505 Dundas 32,410
13 60 Steeles West 29,819
14 34 Eglinton East 29,501
15 53 Steeles East 28,278
16 95 York Mills 27,485
17 85 Sheppard East 27,146
18 102 Markham Rd. 25,137
19 24 Victoria Park 24,731
20 96 Wilson 24,700
21 41 Keele 24,597
22 165 Weston Rd. North 24,314
23 7 Bathurst 24,262
24 39 Finch East 23,745
25 52 Lawrence West 23,036
26 63 Ossington 22,694
27 116 Morningside 22,285
28 196 York University Rocket 21,892
29 84 Sheppard West 19,143
30 199 Finch Rocket 19,055

 

[44 North]

How do you feel about extending the Finch LRT east to Yonge?

I'm still hung up on the "Big U" approach which constrains transit across the top of the city. If you look at the ridership stats, the combination of Steeles, Finch, and Sheppard all show up very high in the TTC's "Top 30" ridership stats. It sure seems that people do cross the top of the city. And the arterial roads are very busy.

I don't have a single favourite solution, but I would argue that there is a need emerging up there. The potential for development at the VMC to feed both jobs and daytime/weekend ridership up that way seems to suggest that ridership will grow, which argues for a connection to TYSSE from the east. Imagine what better transit across any of those three routes would do for York University students, which is a huge daily ridership.

- Paul

All-Day Typical Business Day Ridership for Surface Routes
Listed in Descending Order of Ridership (Boardings)
As of: as of March 1, 2014
All-day
Rank Route # Route Name Ridership
1 504 King 64,579
2 32 Eglinton West 48,684
3 35 Jane 45,699
4 36 Finch West 43,952
5 510 Spadina 43,804
6 501 Queen 43,464
7 29 Dufferin 39,721
8 506 Carlton 39,601
9 25 Don Mills 39,066
10 512 St. Clair 38,113
11 54 Lawrence East 36,277
12 505 Dundas 32,410
13 60 Steeles West 29,819
14 34 Eglinton East 29,501
15 53 Steeles East 28,278
16 95 York Mills 27,485
17 85 Sheppard East 27,146
18 102 Markham Rd. 25,137
19 24 Victoria Park 24,731
20 96 Wilson 24,700
21 41 Keele 24,597
22 165 Weston Rd. North 24,314
23 7 Bathurst 24,262
24 39 Finch East 23,745
25 52 Lawrence West 23,036
26 63 Ossington 22,694
27 116 Morningside 22,285
28 196 York University Rocket 21,892
29 84 Sheppard West 19,143
30 199 Finch Rocket 19,055

For sure. When I said I didn't really support a Shepp West extn, I more meant for the near term, and as a heavy rail extension of the current subway. The costs (+$500M/km) are just so high, and the limitations of heavy rail subways (gradients, turning radii) too much of a hindrance for me to support extending Sheppard as subway - at least for the time being.

I have a love/hate relationship with seeing lists of the TTC's surface ridership. On the one hand it really shows how important the service is to hundreds of thousands, and that the TTC is a true workhorse. But on the other it's a bit disheartening, because I know that many cities build subway lines for routes with a fraction of the surface ridership we see on three dozen of our routes. This is kinda why I think parts of Transit City got it wrong, and why I feel like we need to reexamine things, embrace light metro technology, and look at ways for more affordable grade-separation.

I love the streetcar system, and want to see tram-style LRT spreading out from downtown and all across the region. But the combined catchment of many surface routes is extremely high and in many instances starts to exceed what an in-median LRT can reliably do. Combined Lawrence E/W, York Mills, Wilson, Sheppard E/W, Finch E/W, Steeles E/W - not to mention the area's expressways... demand and usage huge! I would definitely like to see if/how Finch West could be connected to Sheppard East as one continuous line. And perhaps some kind of mirror with crosstown service on Sheppard West through to Finch East. Maybe Bathurst could serve as the spine of this. And although people have reasons to dislike the idea, I definitely think we could use our hydro and highway corridors to help make a cross-region RT system a reality.

*But: if the issue was solely to deadhead trains to Yonge and connect to a yard, and someone asked me which was better for doing this: Yonge North and a new yard at Langstaff, or Sheppard West to connect with Wilson? I'd go with Sheppard West.

 

[WislaHD]

I love the streetcar system, and want to see tram-style LRT spreading out from downtown and all across the region. But the combined catchment of many surface routes is extremely high and in many instances starts to exceed what an in-median LRT can reliably do. Combined Lawrence E/W, York Mills, Wilson, Sheppard E/W, Finch E/W, Steeles E/W - not to mention the area's expressways... demand and usage huge!

This is my criticism of the surface route setup, they all end at Yonge street. I want to see how operations, ridership and commuter behavior changes if these bus routes were made continuous.

Why can't in-median LRT handle this? Our current bus system handles the demand (and other cities like Bogota's BRT does it too), and I am confident that service improvements through a BRT or LRT set-up would handle the demand even better. Especially when the ridership demand is split earlier with a Relief Line transfer on each of those routes to the east of Yonge. After the Relief Line is built, like with the ECLRT, these corridors will have huge daily ridership yet considerably smaller peak-point-direction ridership (compared to our trunk subway routes).

 

[44 North]

Why can't in-median LRT handle this? Our current bus system handles the demand (and other cities like Bogota's BRT does it too), and I am confident that service improvements through a BRT or LRT set-up would handle the demand even better. Especially when the ridership demand is split earlier with a Relief Line transfer on each of those routes to the east of Yonge. After the Relief Line is built, like with the ECLRT, these corridors will have huge daily ridership yet considerably smaller peak-point-direction ridership (compared to our trunk subway routes).

I guess it can handle the loads. But just like with most surface services through the higher density parts of the city - speed, reliability, capacity starts to degrade. So it's easy to say that a 3-car LRV setup can handle in excess of 10k peak for it's entire length, it's not really absolute or guaranteed like that. What can easily be carried along a wide highway-like arterial in the suburban fringe can't as easily be done when blocks get smaller, stops get closer together, light cycles get longer, speed limits are lower, etc. This is one of the things that ticked me off about Mlinx's YRNS LRT proposal: the one place where it's imperative the line should be fully grade-separated (downtown) also happened to be the only section where they proposed running the route amongst traffic. It doesn't make sense. Imagine if the Eglinton Crosstown was proposed to be tunneled west of Keele and east of Don Mills, but in-median through Midtown.

With regards to the Sheppard/Finch corridor, what would be interesting to see is how the FWLRT and SELRT can be morphed into one. Because we already have a 5.5km tunnel on Sheppard, we're seemingly partway there to making a premetro-style LRT line like Eglinton. So if there was a way to use part of the Finch hydro corridor between Keele and Yonge, then somehow connect the Finch Hydro ROW at Yonge south to Sheppard/Yonge - I think that would make for an interesting northerly crosstown. This is obviously fantasy stuff, and doesn't mean I want to see it prioritized. Personally I think the Prov/Fed Libs are working behind closed doors on presenting a vote-buying Sheppard East Subway to McCowan, to coincide with the next Prov election.

 

[gweed123]

Interesting alignment, 44 North. I frequently include a combined Sheppard-Finch LRT in most of my fantasy maps. However, I route it along Sheppard West to Downsview (Sheppard West), then up Dufferin (where the BRT lanes already exist), then across Finch West. This has a couple advantages:

1) It makes use of the existing subway tail track west of Yonge along Sheppard, running to almost Senlac.
2) It provides the most direct connection between the Spadina and Yonge lines.

Your proposal is interesting, but I feel that digging a new subway in NY Centre would be a difficult task. My proposal would limit the amount of new tunnel required in the central section of the line to a few hundred metres, surfacing just east of the Don River.

 

[BMO]

Interesting alignment, 44 North. I frequently include a combined Sheppard-Finch LRT in most of my fantasy maps. However, I route it along Sheppard West to Downsview (Sheppard West), then up Dufferin (where the BRT lanes already exist), then across Finch West. This has a couple advantages:

1) It makes use of the existing subway tail track west of Yonge along Sheppard, running to almost Senlac.
2) It provides the most direct connection between the Spadina and Yonge lines.

Your proposal is interesting, but I feel that digging a new subway in NY Centre would be a difficult task. My proposal would limit the amount of new tunnel required in the central section of the line to a few hundred metres, surfacing just east of the Don River.

Not to mention the distance between Yonge and Downsview is ~4km, the distance between Sheppard and Finch is ~2km you're basically building a redundant section that could go halfway (probably more since the existing tail track goes to Senlac) to Downsview without adding much. Based on visual observations I'd guess that between Yonge and Dufferin, densities are higher on Sheppard than on Finch (maybe someone can correct me)? I don't see much growth occuring along that stretch of Finch for a while. The one thing I will give it is it is closer to the large Bathurst and Steeles High-Rise cluster that could really use the transit.

 

[44 North]

Interesting alignment, 44 North. I frequently include a combined Sheppard-Finch LRT in most of my fantasy maps. However, I route it along Sheppard West to Downsview (Sheppard West), then up Dufferin (where the BRT lanes already exist), then across Finch West. This has a couple advantages:

1) It makes use of the existing subway tail track west of Yonge along Sheppard, running to almost Senlac.
2) It provides the most direct connection between the Spadina and Yonge lines.

Your proposal is interesting, but I feel that digging a new subway in NY Centre would be a difficult task. My proposal would limit the amount of new tunnel required in the central section of the line to a few hundred metres, surfacing just east of the Don River.

Thanks. This wasn't really supposed to be taken seriously, and I didn't give it much thought. Yeah, I agree using Dufferin as the N/S connection between Finch and Shepps makes the most sense. But one thing is that I wanted to utilize the Finch hydro corridor to its full extent, just to give the centralist portion of this crosstown line the highest speeds possible (but done the most cost-effectively). From a city-building perspective, obviously that's not very optimal considering it's away from where the people and jobs are *And I even poked fun at this by naming one of the stations along the hydro corridor "Petrolia"...considering the industrial-ness and amount of petroleum storage tanks in the area.

The 2km section I have on Yonge wasn't really supposed to be tunneled. One idea would be for it to be elevated between the Finch hydro corridor and Sheppard. Yonge is pretty wide, and I think a narrow and well-landscaped LRV guideway could easily be plonked down in the middle of the roadway. Another idea (and which uses part of the existing Shepp tail track) would be to use Beecroft for a 2km cut/cover paralleling Yonge. It's close enough to Yonge that the pedestrian connections between each line's respective/shared NYCC and Finch stations would be easily walkable.

 

[Tuscani01]

Mayor Tory has a press conference at Yonge and Sheppard tomorrow morning regarding getting Toronto moving again. Sheppard announcement maybe?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Doubt it. Any announcement regarding Sheppard East LRT would be at Sheppard & Don Mills or east of there. Maybe they're installing bike racks at Sheppard-Yonge stations; something minor like that.

 

[Amare]

Mayor Tory has a press conference at Yonge and Sheppard tomorrow morning regarding getting Toronto moving again. Sheppard announcement maybe?

One could always dream it would be about the LRT. I dont think we'll ever see Tory at a Sheppard East LRT Press Conference, before he appears at a Smarttrack press conference/photo op.

 

[pstogios]

Doubt it. Any announcement regarding Sheppard East LRT would be at Sheppard & Don Mills or east of there. Maybe they're installing bike racks at Sheppard-Yonge stations; something minor like that.

Why would Tory do a photo opp for bike racks or something similarly insignificant?