Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Ah Den, it's great to be here as always. But I don't think the subway is an inevitability. The Scarborough Liberal caucus and some rather noisy councillors can continue to push for, and they will continue to push for it, but unless the city can find the money (lol) or the province is willing to spend a serious few billions, it has little traction still.

What I find odd about touting any Sheppard project as serving northern Scarborough is that Sheppard really isn't that far north in the east end. Speaking in arterials, you still have Finch, McNicoll, and Steeles—a good third of Scarborough's width at the western edge of the city, and almost a half at the east, not to mention a sizeable chunk of its population—to its north, with zero higher-order transit. If we want to get talking about realllllllyyyyy northern Scarborough, I've always been fond of the idea of a Steeles LRT myself.

Without a doubt, but these people don't care. They want the transit underground and to go from STC quickly without issue. Besides, they are already introducing a proposals on city council.

The Sheppard East LRT budget was about $1 billion, though that didn't include the yard (which was part of the Scarborough RT replacement budget. So about $1.2 billion available. So roughly 4 km of subway. Hmm, might just be able to do it, if you just build one station at Bathurst, and another at Downsview.

Though I doubt the ridership justifies it in comparison to other projects. I'd think the Sheppard East LRT ridership would be higher entering Don Mills station.

And so it begins. Here is some bullshit we can look forward to for many years to come now that the LRT is dead.



http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...ning-to-reintroduce-sheppard-subway-proposal/

Ridership sometimes is not everything.

I think the benefits to connectivity in our transit network (and no, this goes beyond just painting lines on a map to look good) is a very justifiable reason for expansion. The great transit networks we laud in other cities are great for their connectivity and their diversity of transit route choices.

My only question mark is something that was brought up by 44 North in a previous page. Would Yonge Line users transfer on Sheppard to the less crowded Spadina line, or would the reverse happen with Spadina users transferring to an already overcrowded Yonge line? Such a thing should be studied before a Sheppard West extension happens.

At most the Sheppard Subway will cost the same as the Bloor Danforth Extension - 3.5 billion. Maybe 4 because they have to pass the don valley and the 404. There is already 1.2 billion on the table from the LRT. That leaves 2.3 billion. Not too hard to find.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Experiences in Paris and elsewhere seem to suggest that, in general, people aren't willing to trade additional travel time for extra comfort (for city-level journeys, long distance journeys are likely different). It seems that 99% of the people will simply deal with a quicker, more crowded journey than accept a longer journey with more space.

And in this instance, I'd imagine they are even less likely to do so since they would be boarding at a point when the vehicle isn't stuffed (unlike say Eglinton)

Without a doubt, but these people don't care. They want the transit underground and to go from STC quickly without issue. Besides, they are already introducing a proposals on city council.

At most the Sheppard Subway will cost the same as the Bloor Danforth Extension - 3.5 billion. Maybe 4 because they have to pass the don valley and the 404. There is already 1.2 billion on the table from the LRT. That leaves 2.3 billion. Not too hard to find.

2.3B isn't too hard to find? The Feds is putting in 1B for the entire country per year (and that's only in late 201x), and last time I checked the province has a full slate. That leaves what, the city - and imagine the city coming up 2.3B for a line that is frankly not a priority? And pay for it with what, another property tax levy that the residents are already complaining about?

AoD

 

[ehlow]

I'd prefer they do nothing on Sheppard for at least 10 years or longer, no subway east or west, no LRT conversion or extension. That's what they seem to want. Leave it as is, other than improving bus service and maybe some cheap bus lanes (if possible).

I can think of many, many rapid transit projects I'd rather spend money on.

 

[CDL.TO]

It's saddening to see transit investment simply disappear. But the lack of opposition from any MPs, MPPs, local city councillors, the mayor, or any local community organizations means that we really shouldn't find this too surprising. This project had lacked any constituency for many years now. With no one actually willing to go to bat for the SELRT, its death was the only logical outcome.

There has been discussion on this forum and elsewhere about the potential for Metrolinx to do more to push projects forward against opposition. I could see why they might do that for projects with regional benefits, to ensure that a vocal local group couldn't damage a project which would benefit many others. But this isn't a project with regional benefits and it's not one where anyone was asking for it. If Metrolinx had kept moving forward, they would have been looking forward to years of nothing but criticism from local officials and the public.

If the local officials in northern Scarborough really cared about transit in their area right now, they should at least push for the development of a plan to improve bus services in the area. Such a proposal would likely sail through council and maybe could even qualify for some funding from the province as a sop. Unfortunately, it seems that all the transit eggs are in the BD extension basket.

 

[gweed123]

I'd prefer they do nothing on Sheppard for at least 10 years or longer, no subway east or west, no LRT conversion or extension. That's what they seem to want. Leave it as is, other than improving bus service and maybe some cheap bus lanes (if possible).

I can think of many, many rapid transit projects I'd rather spend money on.

Agreed. Shift that funding to the WWLRT, which with all of the construction going on along the Humber Bay, is desperately needed. Get those people from Humber Bay and South Etobicoke off Queen and allow them to access downtown quicker.

 

[CDL.TO]

And in this instance, I'd imagine they are even less likely to do so since they would be boarding at a point when the vehicle isn't stuffed (unlike say Eglinton)

True. But, using Eglinton as the example, I don't expect to see anyone really change their habits even after the ECLRT is opened.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'd prefer they do nothing on Sheppard for at least 10 years or longer, no subway east or west, no LRT conversion or extension. That's what they seem to want. Leave it as is, other than improving bus service and maybe some cheap bus lanes (if possible).

I can think of many, many rapid transit projects I'd rather spend money on.

Agreed.

True. But, using Eglinton as the example, I don't expect to see anyone really change their habits even after the ECLRT is opened.

Perhaps, though I suspect having to stand there and wait for multiple trains to pass by before boarding might/could create enough of an incentive, depending on how long that wait (plus reliability issue) is.

AoD

 

[44 North]

I'd prefer they do nothing on Sheppard for at least 10 years or longer, no subway east or west, no LRT conversion or extension. That's what they seem to want. Leave it as is, other than improving bus service and maybe some cheap bus lanes (if possible).

I can think of many, many rapid transit projects I'd rather spend money on.

Although I’d put a Sheppard extension above the Vaughan and Markham extensions, I wholeheartedly agree. There’s no doubt in my mind any allocated money should go to the DRL. It’s now, what, eight years after Transit City was announced? So it should be pretty clear that money can be earmarked for projects many years in advance. So why not earmark a few $Billion for the DRL?

There has been discussion on this forum and elsewhere about the potential for Metrolinx to do more to push projects forward against opposition. I could see why they might do that for projects with regional benefits, to ensure that a vocal local group couldn't damage a project which would benefit many others. But this isn't a project with regional benefits and it's not one where anyone was asking for it. If Metrolinx had kept moving forward, they would have been looking forward to years of nothing but criticism from local officials and the public.

Clearly there is some regional benefit. The corridor didn’t carry enough to warrant subways, but carried more than BRT threshold. By Toronto transit logic, LRT should be the most optimal choice. Naturally many cities would look towards affordable grade-separated light RT (e.g trenched, EL, etc) – but clearly that’s a non-starter in TO. So in-median LRT/streetcar should’ve been the clear winner any way it was looked at. Not to mention for development as well.

 

[CDL.TO]

Clearly there is some regional benefit. The corridor didn’t carry enough to warrant subways, but carried more than BRT threshold. By Toronto transit logic, LRT should be the most optimal choice. Naturally many cities would look towards affordable grade-separated light RT (e.g trenched, EL, etc) – but clearly that’s a non-starter in TO. So in-median LRT/streetcar should’ve been the clear winner any way it was looked at. Not to mention for development as well.

By "regional benefit" I would mean offering substantive travel benefits to a substantive part of the GTHA region. It's pretty clear that the SELRT was still primarily a local transit project (as is the FWLRT, Hamilton LRT, PULSE, etc...).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Although I’d put a Sheppard extension above the Vaughan and Markham extensions, I wholeheartedly agree. There’s no doubt in my mind any allocated money should go to the DRL. It’s now, what, eight years after Transit City was announced? So it should be pretty clear that money can be earmarked for projects many years in advance. So why not earmark a few $Billion for the DRL?



Clearly there is some regional benefit. The corridor didn’t carry enough to warrant subways, but carried more than BRT threshold. By Toronto transit logic, LRT should be the most optimal choice. Naturally many cities would look towards affordable grade-separated light RT (e.g trenched, EL, etc) – but clearly that’s a non-starter in TO. So in-median LRT/streetcar should’ve been the clear winner any way it was looked at. Not to mention for development as well.

By "regional benefit" I would mean offering substantive travel benefits to a substantive part of the GTHA region. It's pretty clear that the SELRT was still primarily a local transit project (as is the FWLRT, Hamilton LRT, PULSE, etc...).

Here's the thing. This is politics. And this won't stop popping up until the subway is under construction. Give Scarborough whatever they want and then close the book, we have more important things to deal with.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Here's the thing. This is politics. And this won't stop popping up until the subway is under construction. Give Scarborough whatever they want and then close the book, we have more important things to deal with.

Or make sure whoever gets their vote by this whining BS will lose the rest of the city's. Enough is enough. If it requires labelling Scarborough as the armpit of the GTA, so be it.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This project had lacked any constituency for many years now. With no one actually willing to go to bat for the SELRT, its death was the only logical outcome.

The project isn't dead, it's delayed to 2021. It's a little too early to be saying that SELRT is dead so matter-of-factly (this has to the the third time in 5 years that I've seen people declare SELRT dead).

We'll see proposals to replace the line with a subway - those proposals will most likely fail due to lack of funds. Proposals to have the line canceled outright may be more successful, however Mayor JT hasn't responded positively to similar proposals in previous months.

Whether or not the project gets cancelled will most likely depend on who wins the next election cycle in 2018. If the political status quo is maintained (John Tory and Liberals are reelected), this thing will probably be built.

By-elections in the area could also affect the outcome. I know Liberal MPPs have been pushing for the subway option, but I don't think that will be entertained, given how adamant the Liberals are on having a balanced budget before the next election. The balanced budget will likely make or break their 2018 election chances.

 

[Adjei]

Here's the thing. This is politics. And this won't stop popping up until the subway is under construction. Give Scarborough whatever they want and then close the book, we have more important things to deal with.

Scarborough already got they want, they got a $3.5 billion dollar subway.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Scarborough already got they want, they got a $3.5 billion dollar subway.

And Smartracks/GO service expansion.

AoD

 

[Adjei]

And Smartracks/GO service expansion.

AoD

I know, can you imagine the gall of these people...

They want us to spend close to $7 billion dollars on subways just for Scarborough. How many new subways are getting built in other parts of the city? How many subways do you see getting built in Etobicoke which is just as transit starved?