Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[crs1026]

Since the Queensway fleet was Presto-ised, I'm still carrying a backup token, but so far haven't needed to use it. Have been impressed how well the system handles the fare, considering that I'm using a combination of Presto, paper transfers into non-Presto subway entrances, and then more Presto (with a GO Transit segment in the middle, even).

Old Mill does have an area blocked off with signs reading 'Construction' - but I have yet to see anyone actually working there. Maybe they work at night. Much more evidence of work being done at Royal York. It will be interesting to see how the unattended entrance at Grenview is equipped. It's the sort of location that may invite fare evasion.

- Paul

 

[P23]

The Emerson exit at Lansdowne has it's gates removed, I'm assuming they're putting in new ones here as well.

 

[Megaton327]

I tweeted Brad/ttchelps, their response: "Yes, paying with PRESTO on a PRESTO-enabled bus is a valid fare."

 

[Filip]

I tweeted Brad/ttchelps, their response: "Yes, paying with PRESTO on a PRESTO-enabled bus is a valid fare."

Thanks! I'll continue thieving then.

 

[adHominem]

The Emerson exit at Lansdowne has it's gates removed, I'm assuming they're putting in new ones here as well.

You're probably right, though they removed the gates at the Russett exits at Dufferin a month ago and haven't done anything since, so, y'know, don't hold your breath it'll be done soon...

 

[nfitz]

More Presto weirdness. This time from GO Transit.

Went to the Blue Jays game on Friday May 27. Caught GO from Danforth to Union at 6:51 pm. Came back on TTC King streetcar at 10:30 pm. Then didn't use card again until June 1, when taking GO from Danforth to Exhibition.

When tapping off at Union, two people simultaneously tapped off. Being unsure who had successfully tapped, both tapped again (knowing that you can't tap a second time within a few minutes).

But you can. Looks like the first tap-off attempt was at 7:05 pm, and the second was at 7:06 pm (actually was about 10 seconds after first). But Presto saw the second tap (on the same device!) as a tap-on, and then on June 1, assessed a $11.90 penalty fare. Total out-of-pocket $17.20.

I called GO Transit - and it sounds like they'll happily fix it. They confirmed that you shouldn't be able to tap again with 5 minutes on the same device. However if someone else taps in between, then that doesn't apply.

What? What tap-off device at Union goes 5 minutes without a tap when a GO Train arrives.

I'd think this must happen fairly often (though most riders are more polite and patient than my 2 children, racing to tap first ... )

Anyway, another thing to watch out for. I guess I should have paid more attention to the messages after the second tap on each card, and then cancelled the one.

Edit. Bonus for Metrolinx for being quick. 3-5 business days ended up being 2 hour. Credit coming.

They say that what broke the 5-minute block on the second tap, was that there was an autoload at the time of the first tap - and for some reason, this overrides the 5-minute rule.

 

[Megaton327]

And the TTC Presto circus continues: https://twitter.com/caraaahoustyx/status/739927501858689024 "@bradTTC this morning many riders were asked to put in an additional token on 145 when using a presto ...?"

This individual included a screenshot of my own tweet to TTCHelps on June 1 asking if tapping Presto on a bus, including an express route despite it not deducting an extra fare, is valid fare payment, and they replied yes, i.e. you don't have to deposit a token when paying with Presto. Brad Ross has also replied to this individual that he agrees, i.e. the bus driver asking for a token when Presto has been tapped is wrong. But yet, another TTC driver going against the rules, and there's really nothing passengers can do except pay the extra fare or not ride the bus...of course it's against TTC policy now for drivers to challenge passengers on fare in any case, not just with this.

It's ridiculous to deploy Presto on a bus, put a Presto placard on the window, have a passenger board and tap their card, then tell them they need to deposit a token or cash fare too. And it's ridiculous for drivers to be permitted, time and time again, to violate policy and go against management decisions...but every time it happens, the TTC "will investigate what happened, and discuss the situation with the driver as needed - thank you for bringing this matter to our attention". Sigh...

 

[Filip]

The presto related arguments have become a highlight of my morning commute.

 

[smuncky]

And the TTC Presto circus continues: https://twitter.com/caraaahoustyx/status/739927501858689024 "@bradTTC this morning many riders were asked to put in an additional token on 145 when using a presto ...?"

This individual included a screenshot of my own tweet to TTCHelps on June 1 asking if tapping Presto on a bus, including an express route despite it not deducting an extra fare, is valid fare payment, and they replied yes, i.e. you don't have to deposit a token when paying with Presto. Brad Ross has also replied to this individual that he agrees, i.e. the bus driver asking for a token when Presto has been tapped is wrong. But yet, another TTC driver going against the rules, and there's really nothing passengers can do except pay the extra fare or not ride the bus...of course it's against TTC policy now for drivers to challenge passengers on fare in any case, not just with this.

It's ridiculous to deploy Presto on a bus, put a Presto placard on the window, have a passenger board and tap their card, then tell them they need to deposit a token or cash fare too. And it's ridiculous for drivers to be permitted, time and time again, to violate policy and go against management decisions...but every time it happens, the TTC "will investigate what happened, and discuss the situation with the driver as needed - thank you for bringing this matter to our attention". Sigh...

And what if that person doesn't have a token or cash? Does the driver kick them off even though they tapped? Does the driver call Transit Control?

 

[NotMathematical]

I don't know why they can just install a driver side PRESTO device like what they have in the 905+Ottawa to solve this problem. The drivers are able to charge the express fare on YRT Express routes (not Viva), and you can buy a day pass using your e-purse in Ottawa with the assistance of these devices. It even more of a pain now that YRT Contracted bus routes that are now getting PRESTO, you are still required to pay the token/ticket+cash supplement which trumps the incentive of the card.

Yeah they're dealing with the Fare Integration situation right now, but its a short sighted decision not to have these devices. If it works in Ottawa and the 905, why don't they have it for Toronto as well. Hopefully this mess is resolved soon...

 

[rbt]

Yeah they're dealing with the Fare Integration situation right now, but its a short sighted decision not to have these devices. If it works in Ottawa and the 905, why don't they have it for Toronto as well. Hopefully this mess is resolved soon...

They don't need a driver device. The driver already has the ability to tell the bus what route they are taking. They just need to get the route information from the network connected sign/GPS locator system (sends pings to central control) into the network connected Presto machine so it knows what to charge.

I'm guessing this is a feature TTC has in their Presto contract that Metrolinx has not implemented yet. They have TTC feature rollouts through to 2018.

 

[NotMathematical]

They don't need a driver device. The driver already has the ability to tell the bus what route they are taking. They just need to get the route information from the network connected sign/GPS locator system (sends pings to central control) into the network connected Presto machine so it knows what to charge

I don't recall knowing this, but the PRESTO devices for the 905 only communicate at the buses' depot, but if they do manage to communicate with bus's GPS system, it's still incapable of charging the correct fare without the driver devices.

However, this is may be the case for GO since it is a Fare by Distance scheme. The issue arises with flat-rate bus routes. Unless it is the PRESTO device that has the GPS built into it. (Most likely it is)

For YRT buses (not VIVA), the driver has to enter/change the respective Zone when crossing zones.

A GPS solution will work for TTC buses in York Region, but the problem is in Toronto. We have routes that overlap and serve the same stops with other routes like on the 509/510 between Spadina and Queen's Quay Stn. PRESTO is incapable to distinguish between both of these routes. If this were to be a solution, someone boarding at Queen/Woodbine might be charged regular fare for the beaches express bus, or express fare for the 501. Hell it can't even distinguish if an individual is taking a streetcar or bus.

 

[Napoleon]

They don't need a driver device. The driver already has the ability to tell the bus what route they are taking. They just need to get the route information from the network connected sign/GPS locator system (sends pings to central control) into the network connected Presto machine so it knows what to charge.

I'm guessing this is a feature TTC has in their Presto contract that Metrolinx has not implemented yet. They have TTC feature rollouts through to 2018.

Kind of bizarre to schedule the feature rollout after the device installation. IMO, the TTC has two choices until they get this working:

• Accept the payment from the Presto card whether right or wrong and be done with it.
• Turn off the readers and notify everyone that Presto will no longer be accepted at all on express routes.

 

[Megaton327]

I don't recall knowing this, but the PRESTO devices for the 905 only communicate at the buses' depot, but if they do manage to communicate with bus's GPS system, it's still incapable of charging the correct fare without the driver devices.

However, this is may be the case for GO since it is a Fare by Distance scheme. The issue arises with flat-rate bus routes. Unless it is the PRESTO device that has the GPS built into it. (Most likely it is)

For YRT buses (not VIVA), the driver has to enter/change the respective Zone when crossing zones.

A GPS solution will work for TTC buses in York Region, but the problem is in Toronto. We have routes that overlap and serve the same stops with other routes like on the 509/510 between Spadina and Queen's Quay Stn. PRESTO is incapable to distinguish between both of these routes. If this were to be a solution, someone boarding at Queen/Woodbine might be charged regular fare for the beaches express bus, or express fare for the 501. Hell it can't even distinguish if an individual is taking a streetcar or bus.

The TTC Presto readers are the 2nd generation hardware, YRT/Viva have the 1st. It seems reasonable to believe that Presto readers should be able to charge a different fare on TTC buses based on the route number entered by the driver, though I don't know for sure either way.

Regarding TTC transfer issues with overlapping routes like 509/510, the only way for Presto to possibly work on the TTC is with a time-based transfer--indeed, that is what they currently have implemented, it's a 2-hour free transfer with the exception that if you tap on the same route twice you get charged a second fare. Funnily enough that exception to prevent abuse is causing passenger frustration from being double-charged when short-turned and you follow *posted* instructions and tap on the second streetcar then, once you complain, are suddenly told no, you don't tap on the second vehicle; and it's extremely easy to get around the exception downtown due to all of the options provided by the various streetcar and subway routes.

 

[rbt]

Funnily enough that exception to prevent abuse is causing passenger frustration from being double-charged when short-turned and you follow *posted* instructions and tap on the second streetcar then, once you complain, are suddenly told no, you don't tap on the second vehicle; and it's extremely easy to get around the exception downtown due to all of the options provided by the various streetcar and subway routes.

Billing by backend (rather than the card reader) makes this issue pretty trivial. Both transit control and the bus operator know they're short turning. Someone needs to tell the billing system that bus 123 with readers A/B/C has short-turned. Since the line manager sends the order, the line manager is ultimately responsible for this. The backend biller would adjust the price of the continuation tap on the new route.

Of course, real-time reader-based billing makes it very difficult both because of the communication involved to push that information to the following vehicle's readers in time AND requires far more CPU horse-power in the reader than they have.

I expect the real solution is a real-time debit which allows negative (which they do), and a central biller which sends balance adjustments to the machines. So, customer will double-pay for that trip but will receive a credit adjustment on any following a couple hours later.

That said, what I would do and what Accenture implements are often significantly different; but they're looking to maximize billable hours rather than something technically competent especially now that they know Metrolinx will forcibly charge transit agencies 2x the going rate for their services.