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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

Putting photos on Presto cards for the use of the TTC is no different weh the TTC used to issue student ID cards to students in the two school boards in the city of Toronto.
 
I wouldn't call that cheating. They always said that they'd have at least one reader on each vehicle and at each station and then they'd complete the rollout through 2017. I have to say that I'm impressed that they met their goal. I didn't believe it when in mid 2016 it wasn't that common to find PRESTO on buses at all.
 
The TTC claims the plan isn't to use a photo on the card, but to encode it, but that also falls foul of the terms and use of Presto: (The TTC, for the purpose of this notice, is a *third party*)
[...]
Personal Information
Personal information that may be collected by PRESTO in connection with your use of the PRESTO Card is recorded information that identifies individuals and may include:

  1. information relating to financial transactions in which you have been involved or will be involved with PRESTO, including your credit card number and your bank account information;
  2. any identifying number, symbol or other particular identifier assigned to you by PRESTO;
  3. your address or telephone number;
  4. correspondence sent to PRESTO by you that is implicitly or explicitly of a private or confidential nature, and replies to that correspondence that would reveal the contents of the original correspondence; and/or
  5. your name where it appears with other personal information relating to you or where the disclosure of your name would reveal other personal information about you.
In connection with the PRESTO Services to be provided, personal information may be collected by PRESTO from you. As well, PRESTO may collect information about you through your use of the PRESTO Card.

PRESTO limits the amount and type of personal information collected from you to only the personal information that is required for the purposes outlined below, or the purposes identified to you when PRESTO requests your personal information. PRESTO will not use your personal information for any other purpose without first obtaining your consent.

PRESTO’s primary purpose for collecting your personal information is to provide the services and/or products requested by you. In addition, you agree that your personal information may be used, among other things, to:

  1. open and set-up your PRESTO Account;
  2. verify your identity and/or your eligibility for certain PRESTO Services;
  3. mail to you your PRESTO Card and other such items or communications;
  4. operate the PRESTO Services effectively;
  5. administer loyalty programs associated with the use of the PRESTO Services;
  6. protect you and PRESTO from error and fraud
  7. better understand your needs and eligibility for products and services offered by PRESTO or the Service Providers;
  8. communicate to you those products and services that may be of interest to you;
  9. improve the products and/or services offered to you; and
  10. comply with legal and regulatory requirements.

In accordance with FIPPA, the collection of your personal information by PRESTO is limited to that which is necessary for the purposes identified herein. All personal information is collected by PRESTO in a fair and lawful manner.

Limiting Use, Disclosure
PRESTO shall only use or disclose your personal information in accordance with FIPPA. PRESTO will not, without your consent, sell or trade to, or share with any third party, your personal information for purposes other than those for which it was collected or for a purpose consistent with such purposes. However, you agree that PRESTO may disclose your personal information to third parties without your further consent in circumstances where: a. PRESTO has received your previous consent to such disclosure, including for the purposes set out in this Privacy Policy; b. disclosure to a third party is necessary in order to provide services to you; c. it is required or permitted by law or pursuant to a court order; d. PRESTO sells or transfers its business to a third party or restructures; or e. disclosure is reasonably required to a bona fide third party potential investor of PRESTO;
Click to expand...
https://www.prestocard.ca/en/privacy

The TTC *might* be able to get around this by making the requirement for a picture, even in digital form encoded on the card, optional. But there would still be necessary changes to the regulations governing Presto, and perhaps the legislation governing Presto. (Ostensibly the Metrolinx Act and/or others).

I've already covered the topic of other government photo ID cards, and they're covered under other legislation. Ontario Health Cards cannot be required for ID. Provincial health cards can in about six of the provinces. Ontario isn't one. And other Ontario Photo ID is covered under other Acts.

Addendum: FIPPA is:
Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. F.31
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90f31

From Steve Munro:
[...]For a few classes of rider, the TTC proposes that a “Photo ID” be available. This would not be a separate card as in the early days of the Metropass, but a photo integrated into the user’s Presto card and account. The exact mechanism for loading this photo have yet to be determined. Also, it is not yet certain that photos will be required for seniors because, unlike children and students, their eligibility never expires, and linking the card to the rider for fraud prevention is less of an issue. One side effect the TTC did not mention is that a return to photo ID makes the card non-transferable, and this would produce limitations on its use that do not exist with current media.[...]
Click to expand...
https://stevemunro.ca/2016/12/27/ttc-presto-update-december-2016/
 
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Some states (Delaware, California, etc.) are experimenting with digital driver's license, which includes the photo id, bar codes, etc.. See link.

When the PRESTO ever goes digital into your smartphone, you could have the very same information requirements, such as photo ID.

ddl.jpg
 
steveintoronto said:
"An Act to permit the issuance of photo cards to residents of Ontario." As written! Whether the intent was otherwise is open to legal argument.
Click to expand...

Always read the definitions in Section 1. A "photo card" is defined in section 1 to be a "basic photo card, enhanced photo card or combined photo card". Each of these are also defined in Section 1. They are cards "issued under this Act". Any reference to a "photo card" in the Act is referring to one of these 3 that are "issued under this Act". Since a Presto card is not "issued under this Act" this Act is not relevant to the issue of a Presto card.

There is no legal argument here to discuss. The Act is very clear.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Some states (Delaware, California, etc.) are experimenting with digital driver's license, which includes the photo id, bar codes, etc.. See link.

When the PRESTO ever goes digital into your smartphone, you could have the very same information requirements, such as photo ID.
Click to expand...
Even if the rules, regs and legislation are altered to allow that (it might eventually come to that) then what about this?
[Sharing your card
Lend your monthly pass
Unlike paper passes, you can share your monthly PRESTO pass with someone else, who can use it when you aren’t. However, if your card is set for a discount (Senior, Child, Student or Community), you can only lend it to someone else who qualifies.]
So which will it be?
 
muller877 said:
Always read the definitions in Section 1. A "photo card" is defined in section 1 to be a "basic photo card, enhanced photo card or combined photo card". Each of these are also defined in Section 1. They are cards "issued under this Act". Any reference to a "photo card" in the Act is referring to one of these 3 that are "issued under this Act". Since a Presto card is not "issued under this Act" this Act is not relevant to the issue of a Presto card.

There is no legal argument here to discuss. The Act is very clear.
Click to expand...
Yes, there is nothing to discuss and if you stop responding to ill-informed comments the discussion may actually stop. (Don't feed the trolls and all that!)
 
muller877 said:
Always read the definitions in Section 1. A "photo card" is defined in section 1 to be a "basic photo card, enhanced photo card or combined photo card". Each of these are also defined in Section 1. They are cards "issued under this Act". Any reference to a "photo card" in the Act is referring to one of these 3 that are "issued under this Act". Since a Presto card is not "issued under this Act" this Act is not relevant to the issue of a Presto card.

There is no legal argument here to discuss. The Act is very clear.
Click to expand...
I've posted the definitions prior. Whether this Act had intents as you state it matters not. The law is as written, albeit a court could interpret parts as vague, misleading and non-applicable.

In the event, the TTC will not be issuing "Photo Presto Cards" without a change of rules, regs and legislation.
 
steveintoronto said:
The TTC claims the plan isn't to use a photo on the card, but to encode it, but that also falls foul of the terms and use of Presto: (The TTC, for the purpose of this notice, is a *third party*)

............

Addendum: FIPPA is:
Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. F.31
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90f31
Click to expand...

To be clear it is your right to refuse to give any information to Presto/TTC. No one is questioning that. However, the TTC will give you a discount if you meet certain criteria AND you are willing to have you photo used as part of this process.

If you don't want your photo taken you can pay with a Presto card. you can also not link your card to any credit card or email account if you are worried about privacy.

This meets the criteria under the FIPPA. If you don't want your photo taken pay the full fare.
 
muller877 said:
To be clear it is your right to refuse to give any information to Presto/TTC. No one is questioning that. However, the TTC will give you a discount if you meet certain criteria AND you are willing to have you photo used as part of this process.

If you don't want your photo taken you can pay with a Presto card. you can also not link your card to any credit card or email account if you are worried about privacy.

This meets the criteria under the FIPPA. If you don't want your photo taken pay the full fare.
Click to expand...
"If you don't want your photo taken you can pay with a Presto card." The whole point revolves around the TTC proposing the requirement of a Photo Presto ID Card.

Of course you can pay with a Presto Card, and if need be, a separate photo ID to substantiate your claim for child's fare or senior's, if such is included in the proposed regs. But what isn't compliant with Presto Regs is that a *Provincial Agency* demand your photo be included in that card.

I'll post this yet again:
Photo ID PRESTO cards (Child – 10-12, Youth, Post-secondary)

It will never see the light of day unless legislation is changed to permit Presto doing so, and Metrolinx really don't want to do that. Btw: In further searching, the governing legislation for Metrolinx is an Act to revise the Metrolinx Act, name eludes me at this time. There is no mention in either of allowing Presto to become a Photo Card, or in the
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...60909_BoardMtg_2016-2017_Business_Plan_EN.pdf
2016/17 Business Report, even though Presto is discussed in detail including future plans.

Here's typical of the news stories released approx 6 months ago, and no clarification that I can find in the press or anywhere else since. If anyone does have more detail, please post link/reference:
[...]
Since March 2015, children 12 and younger have been able to ride without paying. The program has been successful in increasing ridership among youngsters; the TTC expects to rack up 20 million rides by passengers under 13 this year, up from 12 million last year.

But it's difficult to verify who is eligible because under existing rules, passengers 15 and younger don't need IDs. TTC staff believe many high school students have been posing as 12-year-olds to get a free ride, and assert that requiring 10-to 12-year-olds to have photo IDs would help weed out fare cheats.

Children 6 to 9 will have to have Presto cards because the TTC plans to phase out all tokens, tickets and passes by the end of 2017 and implement Presto instead. Fare collectors at subway stations will be replaced with automatic fare gates that only a Presto card will open, no matter the passenger’s age.

The commission assumes kids under 6 are small enough to go through the fare gates with an adult.

Councillor Joe Mihevc (Ward 21, St. Paul’s), who sits on the board, called the new fare measures “reasonable.”

“There has been frankly too many teenagers taking advantage of this system. Some controls are necessary,” he said. He added that requiring younger kids to have Presto cards is “good training for them.”

TTC chair Josh Colle (Ward 15, Eglinton-Lawrence), who has three sons under 13, admitted kids might be prone lose the cards, but said that since it’s unlikely they would be travelling alone, a parent could hold onto the passes for them. “I know I would,” he said.

Colle added that he’s hoping for more clarity on how the photo IDs will be distributed to young riders, because he wants to avoid “a bureaucratic mess.” TTC staff say the cards would be distributed through schools. They estimate passengers would be charged a fee of $5 to $7 for the photo ID, which would appear on their Presto cards. The fare cards themselves cost $6. [...]
Click to expand...
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...1/ttc-to-require-presto-cards-from-age-6.html

“a bureaucratic mess.” Indeed...
 
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Reecemartin said:
To change the topic;

Riding the UP today I saw a woman who had a Presto Card that had the TO skyline on it in the UP art style. Is this new? Are there other Presto Card designs?
Click to expand...

That was a limited-time special card design introduced when the UPX entered service, exclusively available from their stations. It supposedly sold out in just a few days but then I saw them tweeting fairly recently that they were selling them at Union. Not sure if they still have any.

The cards I know of are: the original vertical ones, the new horizontal ones, the updated horizontal ones with braille, and the UPX ones.
 
Reecemartin said:
I wonder if it would make sense for Metrolinx to offer multiple designs. I remember a similar discussion occuring on the Metro Vancouver Transit Forum. It was suggested that they sell cards with some special design like an orca etc. And charge a premium. A good way to make a little extra money off of tourists, (or at least half of the people on this forum :D)
Click to expand...

People are already outraged (see twitter...all I can say is *wow*) at the TTC and Metrolinx because Presto cards cost a nonrefundable $6, I don't think you're going to get many people to pay more for a prettier card.
 
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