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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

I've just been re-reading a lot of the Presto info on using the card, some of it is very ambiguous. Won't list them all right now, but this is revealing:

[For commuters looking for a faster way to get downtown from Bloor and Weston stations, the new fare structure offers prices that match GO Transit fares.]
https://www.prestocard.ca/en/about/paying-for-transit

Consider that wording very carefully. This was debated here and elsewhere almost a year ago, and yet this is currently still up at the Presto site linked prior:
"prices that match GO Transit fares". Note they don't state that the "fare" is integrated, just the price of that fare. No mention of your fare being good for 'booking through' on UPX, just that if you ride from, say, Union to Bloor, the cost of that fare is the same as if you took the GO train between the same points. No transfer from GO is recognized on UPX!

This may still be the basis of my continuing issue with the GO Presto machine on the Union UPX platform, and the advice of one GO service rep to use the GO Presto machines downstairs, or not tap off and on during the transfer from GO train at Union to UPX, and just tap off at the GO Presto machine at Bloor. That has solved the problem, but then renders getting a refund on-line for a late train void. In those instances, phoning it becomes necessary.

It shouldn't be this way! How many times does a glitch have to repeat itself being reported for it to be addressed?

And I'm getting tired of being asked to participate in their phone surveys every time I phone in. The answers obviously count for nothing.

For the record, I've done it infrequently, but on a few occasions I've transferred between other GO Train and Bus lines at Union and the UPX to Bloor, using the GO Presto reader at Union UPX, and had no issues with the transfer.

Between this and the other issues you've reported which have differed wildly from my experiences, while it shouldn't be possible and makes absolutely no sense, maybe your Presto card/account is somehow thoroughly bugged, itself?
 
For the record, I've done it infrequently, but on a few occasions I've transferred between other GO Train and Bus lines at Union and the UPX to Bloor, using the GO Presto reader at Union UPX, and had no issues with the transfer.

Between this and the other issues you've reported which have differed wildly from my experiences
So if your infrequent experience doesn't display the problem, but others on-line report the same thing, then your limited observation overrules everyone else's?

You state more than you intended...

I do the trip very frequently, almost daily during the Summer. And for some reason, being told by some GO service reps, that it is a known issue, and they don't know why it hasn't been addressed, is negated by your limited experience?

Quite a few others beg to differ with you Megaton. I guess their cards aren't as blessed as yours:

Four years ago in Ottawa:
[...]
In trials, the card readers often don’t register first taps, transit commission chairwoman Diane Deans said, leaving riders wondering if their accounts have been hit for two fares for one ride. There are other “technical and customer service issues,” too, though Deans wouldn’t get into detail about them.

A group including Mayor Jim Watson, Deans, transit general manager John Manconi and senior OC Transpo managers convened a midafternoon meeting Wednesday in the mayor’s office, trying to decide what to do. In a conference call during the meeting, representatives of Metrolinx, the provincial agency behind the Presto card, promised the problems could be fixed in time for the planned rollout. [...]
PressReader - Ottawa Citizen: 2012-06-07 - City:
www.pressreader.com/canada/ottawa-citizen/20120607/281552287922298

Fast forward to Toronto today:
TTC concedes too many Presto readers are failing | Toronto Star
https://www.thestar.com › News › GTA
Mon., Sept. 26, 2016. The TTC's Presto problems are more widespread than previously thought. The transit ... But he said it's probably a software problem.

TTC's rollout of PRESTO delayed again - blogTO
www.blogto.com/city/2016/09/ttcs_rollout_of_presto_delayed_again/
Sep 16, 2016 - presto ttc The TTC and delays are pretty much synonymous. ... Apparently, as the Globe says, there are problems with the PRESTO software.

Nobody seems to know how many TTC Presto card readers are failing ...
www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2016/09/26/ttc-presto-card-reader-failures-.html
Sep 26, 2016 - The TTC's Presto problems are more widespread than previously thought. The transit ... But he said it's probably a software problem. Related.
You visited this page on 13/11/16.

About Presto and that 2-hour window - You. Me. Ride This Crazy Train
www.thiscrazytrain.com/2012/10/about-presto-and-that-2-hour-window.html
Oct 18, 2012 - I tapped off at Union because I would be taking a different train on a ... If transferring from bus to train and you forget to tap off the bus, don't panic. ... Later the same day, more than 2.5 hours later, tap Presto card at Burlington.

The Switch to Presto Could Make Life a Lot Harder for Seniors and ...
torontoist.com/.../the-switch-to-presto-could-make-life-a-lot-harder-for-seniors-and-st...
Sep 21, 2016 - So far, Presto readers have been installed in more than 1,000 TTC ... They had other Presto cards/software to use but arrogantly decided to ...

Presto: A Botched Opportunity to Market Transit in Toronto? – Steve ...
https://stevemunro.ca/.../presto-a-botched-opportunity-to-market-transit-in-toronto/
Sep 12, 2016 - In May 2016, of the 41.3 million trips taken on the TTC, Presto was ... and the need for the Presto software to figure out what is a “legal” transfer.

TTC's long, slow rollout of Presto getting longer - The Globe and Mail
www.theglobeandmail.com › News › Toronto
Sep 16, 2016 - TTC spokesman Brad Ross said Friday that Presto has been slow developing the software needed for the card to offer Metropass-like ...
When is Presto ever going to live up to claims?
 
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I've just been re-reading a lot of the Presto info on using the card, some of it is very ambiguous. Won't list them all right now, but this is revealing:

[For commuters looking for a faster way to get downtown from Bloor and Weston stations, the new fare structure offers prices that match GO Transit fares.]
https://www.prestocard.ca/en/about/paying-for-transit

Consider that wording very carefully. This was debated here and elsewhere almost a year ago, and yet this is currently still up at the Presto site linked prior:
"prices that match GO Transit fares". Note they don't state that the "fare" is integrated, just the price of that fare is matched if starting your trip between those starts and destinations, GO vs UPX. No mention of your fare being good for 'booking through' on UPX, just that if you ride from, say, Union to Bloor, the cost of that fare is the same as if you took the GO train between the same points. No transfer from GO is recognized onto UPX according to this missive! (I get contrary and contradictory info from other sources)

This may still be the basis of my continuing issue with the GO Presto machine on the Union UPX platform, and that's the basis of the advice of one GO service rep to use the GO Presto machines downstairs, or not tap off and on during the transfer from GO train at Union to UPX, and just tap off at the GO Presto machine at Bloor. That has solved the problem, but then renders getting a refund on-line for a late train void. In those instances, phoning it becomes necessary.

It shouldn't be this way! How many times does a glitch have to repeat itself being reported for it to be addressed?

It's incredible that a fare payment system can cause it's users so much headache - it's a fare payment system. Users should be able to tap on an reload without worrying about the system screwing up. That's too much to ask from Metrolinx apparently.
 
It's incredible that a fare payment system can cause it's users so much headache - it's a fare payment system. Users should be able to tap on an reload without worrying about the system screwing up. That's too much to ask from Metrolinx apparently.

Presto has been working well for years on Go Transit and every 905 transit agency. The TTC seems to be the only transit system having problems with it, and most of the problems seem to be related to their reluctance to move onto Presto or their stupid transfer system. But yeah, let's blame Metrolinx.
 
Presto has been working well for years on Go Transit and every 905 transit agency.
Tell that to Hamilton and Ottawa for a start. I think best you research that. Google would be a good place to start, albeit both are outside the 905 region, or was that your being obfuscatory?
Reach out to the TTC via Twitter and email. They might have the Presto system incorrectly programmed to reject surface-to-subway transfers at Union.
On the TTC, since time-based transfers are apparently way too complicated, the machine locks you out for 90 minutes on the bus and 2 minutes at subway stations. You can't re-tap the same card, even if you take the same bus back in the opposite direction.
Really? Do you have a reference for that? This forum alone shows that to be incorrect.
 
Presto has been working well for years on Go Transit and every 905 transit agency. The TTC seems to be the only transit system having problems with it...

That's not true though. Hamilton has been having a ton of problems with it as well. HSR staff recently called Presto unreliable, which is why so few commuters in Hamilton use it. I hear Burlington has been having issues too.
 
If you had tried to retap on the bus (when the drive accused you of not tapping), would the Presto machine not have indicated that you had already paid?

Just curious for the future. I'm reading this while sipping coffee on a Sunday morning, not during a commute on a packed bus!

I haven't tried it, but I know Presto on the TTC does not allow double taps. However, I believe the system would only show that the card was denied, and not say that it was denied due to a double tap. So that would not have helped prove that I paid my fare, since it could also be denied due to low balance.
 
Excellent heads-up, just reading article now.

[...]
City Manager Chris Murray said Metrolinx’s last offer to Hamilton was not “acceptable” and he has asked to meet with Transportation Minister Steve Del Duca over the issue. “(Staff) is not comfortable making a recommendation (to council),” said Murray. Mountain councillor Terry Whitehead said the proposed 10-year operating agreement with Metrolinx could mean an increase from about 2.5 per cent to 16 per cent to the city. Whitehead said it could add an additional $4 million to the city’s budget.
[...]
Mayor Fred Eisenberger...agreed with Murray the final offer issued by Metrolinx was “unacceptable.” He said Metrolinx has not delivered as promised on programs to Hamilton.
[...]
As its negotiations continue, Ottawa is looking at taking legal action against Metrolinx over how its operation agreement has been presented.
[...]
Hamilton residents have been slow to use the Presto card due to what transit staff has called an “unreliable system.” Only about seven per cent of HSR rides use Presto, compared to 60 per cent for the rest of the province. The city spent $6.5 million over a number of years to install the Presto machines on all HSR buses. Riders have only limited locations, Hunter Street GO station, city hall and Dundas municipal centre, and all Fortinos across the city.]

16% is a whopping amount.

Wow. And I thought Metrolinx's 10% request for Ottawa was bad.

If Metrolinx continues down this path, Hamilton, Ottawa and other GTA-area transit operators who've been asked to shoulder the additional costs should agree to collectively pull out of the Presto program. Presto is only effective if all transit operators are on board, so having multiple pulling out of the program would send a strong message to Metrolinx.
 
So if your infrequent experience doesn't display the problem, but others on-line report the same thing, then your limited observation overrules everyone else's?

You state more than you intended...

I do the trip very frequently, almost daily during the Summer. And for some reason, being told by some GO service reps, that it is a known issue, and they don't know why it hasn't been addressed, is negated by your limited experience?

Quite a few others beg to differ with you Megaton. I guess their cards aren't as blessed as yours:

Four years ago in Ottawa:

PressReader - Ottawa Citizen: 2012-06-07 - City:
www.pressreader.com/canada/ottawa-citizen/20120607/281552287922298

Fast forward to Toronto today:

When is Presto ever going to live up to claims?

I was trying to be polite and entertain your notion, but I'll retract my statement and go to my initial assumption based on your posts to date: what you're saying obviously has zero basis in reality, as what you're describing simply does not happen. You either just don't know how to use the card properly, or you're just making up nonsense to suit your anti-presto vendetta.

After all of the negativity in other threads, I'd cleaned out my ignore list, but I think I may have been hasty.
 
what you're saying obviously has zero basis in reality
lol...in other words, you don't wish to believe it. I've posted instances of many others having the same happen, and there's reams more on the web. Your idea of "politeness" begs credulity.
After all of the negativity in other threads, I'd cleaned out my ignore list, but I think I may have been hasty.
Well best you ignore the web, and some of the articles written by at least two of the moderators at this site, lots of persons expressing their experiences and opinions there.

Since their experience " has zero basis in reality" you can dismiss any opinion that doesn't jibe with yours. No need to discuss the facts, just block them.
 
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Wow. And I thought Metrolinx's 10% request for Ottawa was bad.

If Metrolinx continues down this path, Hamilton, Ottawa and other GTA-area transit operators who've been asked to shoulder the additional costs should agree to collectively pull out of the Presto program. Presto is only effective if all transit operators are on board, so having multiple pulling out of the program would send a strong message to Metrolinx.
In all fairness to Metrolinx, there's bound to be glitches, but to then charge full price (and a huge one) for a buggy system defies sensible business practice. Ironically, if the Presto site is correct (questionable, as I've pointed out) then it's possible to transfer no-extra-fare between these adjacent GTHA transit systems, ostensibly without using Presto:
Transferring to/from other local transit services
Transfer for free between the following systems within the 2-hour transfer window:
  • Brampton Transit
  • Burlington Transit
  • Durham Region Transit
  • Hamilton Street Railway
  • MiWay
  • Oakville Transit
  • York Region Transit/Viva
Since the terms of transferring aren't stated, one presumes it can be done with a paper transfer from any one of the participants. Grand River Transit also had issues with Presto, I don't have the story handy, but again, it was due to asking such a high % to use it, and how dated and limited the technology is. (Waterloo, of course, is the Silicon Valley of Canada).

Here's how GRT diplomatically state it on their website:
EasyGO Fare Card - Frequently Asked Questions
1. What is the EasyGO Fare Card?
The EasyGO Fare Card is an electronic fare card that uses smart-card technology to storefunds in a secure account. Customers can load their fare either online or in person. The EasyGO Fare Card will replace the need for paper tickets, monthly passes and cash, although cash payment will still be an option. When you tap the EasyGO Fare Card on a fare payment device, the electronic chip embedded in the card will instantly calculatethe fare you owe and deduct it from your account or verify your monthly pass.

2. Why the name EasyGO Fare Card?
EasyGo Fare Card was chosen because it is a strong brand our customers are familiar with. It complements GRT's existing EasyGO brand of products including Trip Planner, Next Bus Text, Next Bus Call, Real-time Desktop Map and Mobile App - which all make taking transit easy.

3. When will the EasyGO Fare Card be available?
GRT expects to launch the card in late 2016 or early 2017 following a pilot test of the system.

4. Where can I use the EasyGO Fare Card?
The EasyGO Fare Card will be accepted for fare payment on all transportation services provided by the Region of Waterloo. They include, GRT conventional buses, specialized transit (MobilityPLUS), BusPLUS, Kiwanis Transit, ION Bus Rapid Transit and the future ION Light Rail Transit.

5. What are the benefits of the EasyGO Fare Card?
There are a number of benefits to using the EasyGO Fare Card. It will allow you to travel seamlessly on GRT's family of services with just one card - this includes ION train service. You can add money to your card either in person or online. By registering your card you will protect the money you store on it. Should your card be lost or stolen, any products on it can be transferred to a replacement card.

6. I am an Adult Monthly Pass, Reduced Monthly Pass, T.R.I.P, Reduced Ticket user; will I still be able to purchase these fares?
GRT's current fare products will continue to be offered, with some slight changes to adapt to the new technology. Customers will load the fare type of their choice onto the EasyGO Fare Card. For instance, if you are a Reduced Monthly Pass user you can continue to purchase that pass, but it will be stored on the EasyGO Fare Card.

In place of tickets, the card will store the value of your tickets. When you tap your card to a fare payment device, the value of your ticket will be deducted from the value stored on your card. If you are a Reduced Ticket user, the amount deducted would be the price of a Reduced Ticket.

You can carry a pass and Stored Value (tickets) on a card at the same time. If you have a valid pass on the card, then the pass will be used for payment until it expires.

A minimum amount of $10 must be loaded on the card; therefore you cannot load a single fare ride onto your EasyGO Fare Card. If you wish to ride only once, you may continue to pay cash.

7. What will happen to GRT's current fare boxes?
GRT will be working to replace its existing fare boxes with new ones capable of reading the EasyGO Fare Card. This process will take place over summer/fall 2016. These new fare boxes will continue to accept our current fare products, however they will no longer accept bills or pennies. If you are paying your fare with cash, please have exact change. The new farebox does not issue change.

8. Why wasn't Presto selected?
Presto could not be selected because they did not respond to a Request for Proposals, which is a Regional requirement. Also, Presto could not provide many of the functionalities that the Region deemed essential for our system including the ability to accept payment on MobilityPLUS vehicles, the ability to integrate a U-Pass program and the ability to issue machine readable paper tickets from Ticket Vending Machines. Having our own system allows us to ensure our fare products meet our unique customer needs.

9. What will happen to the $.50 Connect to GO for GO train riders?
We will continue the current Connect-to-GO discount program with the new system.

10. How do transfers work?
Transfers will be built right into your EasyGO Fare Card. Once you tap your card on the fare box it will automatically provide you with a 90 minute window to transfer to your next bus or to ION. However, if you pay for your fare with cash, you will need to push the button on the farebox to get a paper transfer after inserting your coins.
http://www.grt.ca/en/fares/EasyGO-FAQ.asp

One of a growing number of areas served by GO, but the local transit orgs declining uptake of the Presto Card.
 
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Here's more on the background story, but of course readers, if you don't like a presented case, feel absolutely free to block it, as obviously, I'm just making this up:
Presto electronic transit card system comes under attack
[...]
“You are forcing municipalities . . . to take a technology that is light years behind what is available in the marketplace today and you are continuing to pour multi-millions of dollars into the development of the Presto technology just to catch up,” PC MPP Frank Klees (Newmarket-Aurora) said.

“The problem we have here is this rings very similar to the eHealth issue . . . where the government continued to pour multi-millions of dollars into the development of a technology and it never did appear,” he said, adding that management consulting, technology services firm Accenture is the common denominator.

In 2009 the provincial auditor general released a scathing 50-page report concluding successive Progressive Conservative and Liberal administrations squandered more than $1 billion on electronic health records for patients with little to show for it.

Prichard bristled at this analogy, saying it was “unfair and misleading to the excellent work my colleagues have done with Presto.”

“Presto has 900,000 users. Presto is in effect in all our systems, is working and has done over a half a billion dollars of service, so some notion that this isn’t working is something that’s inconsistent with the facts,” he said.

“There was no off-the-shelf system available to meet the needs that Presto was obliged to meet for the 10 transit systems that make up the GTHA.”

Klees said the fact that Waterloo Region recently turned its back on the Presto system is further proof that it was not current enough to adapt to the region’s transit needs.

The MPP told reporters later the Region of Waterloo “has confirmed” the Presto system is already outdated.

“They are going to an open tender because they want the advance technology, an open payment system that Metrolinx simply can’t deliver. Metrolinx had to resort to coercion and essentially blackmail to force Presto on the TTC. We know that the same thing happened in Ottawa and we know there are problems through the entire Presto system,” he said.

McCuaig later defended the system.

“We believe that Presto is a fully up-to-date, innovative, front of the pack, integrated fare card system. It’s the same kind of system that you would see with the London (England) Oyster card or with the Hong Kong card . . . which will continue to evolve all the time,” he told reporters.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...c_transit_card_system_comes_under_attack.html

Note these two direct quotes, one by Pritchard, the other by McQuaig:

“There was no off-the-shelf system available to meet the needs that Presto was obliged to meet for the 10 transit systems that make up the GTHA.”

“We believe that Presto is a fully up-to-date, innovative, front of the pack, integrated fare card system. It’s the same kind of system that you would see with the London (England) Oyster card or with the Hong Kong card . . . which will continue to evolve all the time,” he told reporters.

The left hand doesn't know what the right one is doing. Oyster was 'on the shelf' a decade before Presto, ditto Hong Kong's card and technology. And Oyster, I can testify from my work sojourns in London, is far more flexible and user-friendly than Presto in almost every respect. I read others stating same about Hong Kong's Octopus Card.

I'm sure if Pritchard and McQuaig were to dance together, there would be broken toes and scuffed patent leather shoes.

You're right Megaton 327. I don't care much for Presto. We got took, big time, but all some can do is intimate: "Shut up and bear it". The Almighty Throne is not to be questioned.
 
I just used my PRESTO on the 121 Fort York bus - the driver told me that "most of the buses on 121 now have PRESTO". I assume it won't be long before all buses from that garage (Eglinton??) are equipped with PRESTO and the TTC list will be adjusted.
I went to a show at the Sound Academy on Friday night and boarded on that 121 from Union Station and was lucky enough to have a PRESTO reader there (I had no change on me and I was an idiot who forgot to grab a transfer at the subway station). However on my way back home I tried using 76 which didn't have a reader
 
I went to a show at the Sound Academy on Friday night and boarded on that 121 from Union Station and was lucky enough to have a PRESTO reader there (I had no change on me and I was an idiot who forgot to grab a transfer at the subway station). However on my way back home I tried using 76 which didn't have a reader
That's a fair walk down Cherry from Mill St, good for you. The 121C was discontinued beginning of October. Weather's been pretty good for walking down, but beware though:

121 Fort York-Esplanade - Service reduction
Service change effective November 20, 2016

Last updated October 25 2016, 12:50 PM

For your return, it would be the 72B Pape, which runs pretty late, well past 1 AM so the driver told me last Wednesday. I'd missed my lift down to Polson to jam in the building to the east of the Sound Academy, so had to take subway from the west end to Pape, then south. I was carrying a bass, or would have walked down from Mill St and/or cycled. I got a lift back out so didn't have to take the 72, but it is reasonably frequent, even that late. Most of the drivers I've met on that route are very easy going, so if you get stuck with no cash, have them drop you off outside the subway station and you can use your Presto to get in, if installed at the Pape end, or go to the bank machine at the corner Pape/Danforth.

The 72B western end is a loop that includes Union Station.
http://ttc.ca/html2pdf.action?url=http://ttc.ca/Schedule/schedule.jsp?Route=72N&Stop=s.b._on_Bay_St_at_Front_St_West_South_Side_%28Union_Station%29&pdfMerged=1&routeNo=72&stopName=Bay_St_at_Front_St_West_South_Side_(Union_Station)&bound=SB&day=Mon_To_Fri&type=1&pdfMerged=1&routeName=PAPE
 
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