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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

nfitz said:
Because you will have to tap on when entering a bus in a fare-paid area of a subway station. To not put at the back door, would mean you couldn't board through the back door at stations.
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They're going to have to do a little more public education to get users to tap in a fare-paid area. I was kind of surprised how little info was done on the Presto streetcar launch. I still occasionally get people asking me how it works on streetcars.
 
adHominem said:
Plus, all-door boarding speeds travel times, particularly on congested routes (thinking specifically of Dufferin – loading an articulated bus via the front door only takes forever). Whatever extra cost is involved in a second reader is more than worth it in efficiency gains.
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I didn't know that there were plans for all-door boarding on buses. Are buses to become POP?

Napoleon said:
They're going to have to do a little more public education to get users to tap in a fare-paid area. I was kind of surprised how little info was done on the Presto streetcar launch. I still occasionally get people asking me how it works on streetcars.
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Agreed, I had no idea. The difference is that streetcars are proof-of-payment; so, an inspector needs to check that you tapped on. Bus routes are not currently POP, so is it really necessary to tap on in a fare-paid area?
 
Napoleon said:
They're going to have to do a little more public education to get users to tap in a fare-paid area. I was kind of surprised how little info was done on the Presto streetcar launch. I still occasionally get people asking me how it works on streetcars.
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On the 509, there were Presto people on board streetcars explaining the system for a long time
 
nfitz said:
Because you will have to tap on when entering a bus in a fare-paid area of a subway station. To not put at the back door, would mean you couldn't board through the back door at stations.
Click to expand...

So, now I'm quite confused.....will there be tap-off from the subway also, where the transfer used to be fare-paid?

As in two taps.....one off the subway, and the second onto the bus?

- Paul
 
There are a bunch of de-facto all door boarding stops in the city that TTC just kind of looks the other way on. Thinking of the Dufferin bus at Dufferin station, which is not a fare paid area, but volumes are so high that the driver often (or always?) opens the back doors and lets people on.

When I used to have to take the 66 Prince Edward from Park Lawn and Lakeshore in the AM, the driver would often open the back door, because that stop would basically take the bus from empty to capacity.

I'm sure there are others that I just haven't crossed paths with.

The Presto readers will be useful there, and eventually we can just move to official all door boarding anyways once officials smarten up.
 
flyinggoats said:
I didn't know that there were plans for all-door boarding on buses. Are buses to become POP?
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There's no plan to make buses all-door boarding - except in fare-paid areas - where they are already all-door loading.

crs1026 said:
So, now I'm quite confused.....will there be tap-off from the subway also, where the transfer used to be fare-paid?
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When you exit through the fare gates, you'll eventually have to tap out of the subway station through the fare gates - TTC announced this last year.

crs1026 said:
As in two taps.....one off the subway, and the second onto the bus?
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Only at stations where there is no fare-paid area (Jane and Dufferin come to mind).

Either you tap out of a station through the faregates - or onto a bus or streetcar. You'd only tap twice if you enter the subway station only to take a bus or streetcar.
 
drum118 said:
Need to go to page 8 to read the report on the Presto system for Mississauga and what heading toward all transit systems. Be prepare to pay a higher fare because of this downloading or taxpayer paying more to cover this rip off.

PRESTO Operating Agreement Renewal Update
https://www7.mississauga.ca/documents/committees/council/2016/05_25_2016_Council_Agenda.pdf
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That's a pretty damning report--certainly looks like the report is trying to say that the costs are not worth the Gas Tax funding.

Wonder how long it'll be before at least one GTHA/Ottawa transit agency ditches Presto, or at least threatens to until the Province backs down...it seems insane to consider with the level of investment undertaken to date/the amount of work that's been done converting vehicles and fares and educating passengers, but if the costs are going to be that high, I wouldn't be that surprised.
 
Megaton327 said:
That's a pretty damning report--certainly looks like the report is trying to say that the costs are not worth the Gas Tax funding.

Wonder how long it'll be before at least one GTHA/Ottawa transit agency ditches Presto, or at least threatens to until the Province backs down...it seems insane to consider with the level of investment undertaken to date/the amount of work that's been done converting vehicles and fares and educating passengers, but if the costs are going to be that high, I wouldn't be that surprised.
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The province is going to have to subsidize Presto with tax revenues. The optics of having municipalities mouth balling the system will be terrible for the Province.

Either way, it's the taxpayer and transit users who will still get screwed.
 
When I got told a few things as this thing was being built in the beginning; about the vendor and what I knew, I said this was a joke system that going to rip everyone off and not be able to do what a smart system should do.

Ottawa is on the hock for 10% now with the threat of having monies held from them if they didn't pay the 10% charge. TTC has stated from day one that this wasn't the system for them and it was going to cost them more in the long run.

This report said the cost to use this system is almost 1/3 of the gas taxes it received from the province.

A number of systems have major issues with the system to the point it was costing them more to collect fare using the Presto system compare to normal collection.

Using the Presto does save cost of collecting fare as well delivering fare media to the various agency selling them at this time for some systems, but keep jacking up the collect fee will be come a drain on the bottom line at the end of the day.

At this time anyone willing to ditch the Presto System, they will received no gas tax or other funding from the province and will be on their own to fund that system 100%.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Do we have any idea how much the Metropass costs the TTC to operate, and how much an open payment system would cost?
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Have they even done a detail report on this matter? I highly doubt it.

For metropasses they currently pay for:
printing the metropasses
write the magnetic data to the strip
distribute it to all sellers
accept the 2-5% charged by Credit card companies
pay for the extra collectors to sell them
maintain the vending machines
collect the leftovers afterwards
accept that fact that fake passes exist

All of these steps can be automated and passed onto presto. At the beginning of the month they're need a lot more servers to handle the extra load that people are buying their passes. This would cause a surge with the TTC customers compared to now. Presto would have to suck up these extra cost or have someone else pay for them.

An open payment system could mean there is no central server. The cost associated with presto's server would disappear. I thought TTC wanted people to just pay with credit cards so the distribution of cards will be the bank's problem. The reader would just be a payment terminal. Transactions would appear on your CC statements. People without a CC can just get a cash card and reload that.
TTC's transfer system might need a central server. It could still use CCs or a special card based on CC technology.

Chicago for example uses it's own card: http://www.transitchicago.com/riding_cta/how_to_guides/payingyourfare.aspx
About open payment systems: http://www.xerox.com/downloads/services/white-paper/open-payment-fare-systems.pdf

The whole point with an open payment system is to let the private sectors (banks) do the development instead of spending $700m for this backwards presto system. TTC would likely have to pay for all the payment terminals but won't be on the hook form the middleman (Presto/Metrolinx).
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Are there any disadvantages or limitations with open payments for TTC?
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They'll have to adapt to any new changes quicker. If the industry decides they need new hardware in a decade, they'll have to adapt. With presto, the hardware would likely remain the same for a longer period of time.

There will also be more transaction as everyone would be tapping their CC's instead. This will require more data bandwidth as they need a data connect on every tap than uploading presto data every hour or so.

A private company (probably the one the does the installations) might charge a management fees for keeping the system going. I would assume that the TTC wouldn't be stupid enough to hire a company that install a system that have a monopoly over management (meaning avoiding a situation like presto). That fee would be industry standard and not whatever Metrolinx imposes. It would all come down to how the contract is written and who is managing the system (TTC vs private).

Either way, the transfer problem will exist and people might get double charged with the current transfer rule.

A bright side, if they went with CCs, the rider doesn't need to pay upfront for a $6 card.
 
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