Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

Westbound the Spadina stop is in two different places (just south of the intersection for 510 going north and just west of it for 509 going west), eastbound they do. Some 510s short-turn at QQ and don't go to Union, so people will get off the 510 and continue on to Union on the 509.

The original poster said "If I'm riding on a 509 and switch to the 510 at Spadina, presumably I'd have to tap again on the 510, and it would be a free transfer."

And my response was "At Spadina? They don't share a stop at Spadina. Presumably you'd transfer at Rees". My comment stands.

 

[PinkLucy]

Not really, you'd still transfer at Spadina; that's what most people do rather than at Rees and what the drivers recommend. You could do Rees, but you could also do Spadina, so you're both right. You'd probably have less of a wait at Spadina, although you'd have to walk a couple of hundred feet, because you'd have the short-turn 510s as well as the ones from Union.

 

[nfitz]

Not really, you'd still transfer at Spadina; that's what most people do rather than at Rees and what the drivers recommend.

The drivers recommend Spadina? Why? You'd have to cross at two lights. You could easily miss the car behind thouhh.

You could do Rees, but you could also do Spadina, so you're both right. You'd probably have less of a wait at Spadina, although you'd have to walk a couple of hundred feet, because you'd have the short-turn 510s as well as the ones from Union.

Ah, that's a good point. Okay, now I'd see why you might change at Spadina rather than Rees. Though personally, I'm always heading towards Exhibition, so all my transfers are from 510 to 509. I guess I could just wait for a 509 at Union ... but it's often such a zoo, I just want to get the heck out of there on whatever leaves first!

 

[Megaton327]

Westbound? Isn't the 510 stop ON Spadina and the 509 stop on Harbourfront? I've changed at Rees before.

Eastbound you could change at the same stop when on 509 - but why would you, as all cars go to Union, so presumably the only time a 509 rider would change at Spadina is westbound, where surely it's a different stop.

While one doesn't need a transfer then using Presto on streetcars, given the frequency of replacement buses, and also using the various downtown bus routes as an alternate at the last second, I'd still be taking a transfer.

Eastbound 509 to Northbound 510 does share a stop in that they are both at the intersection. If that doesn't qualify as sharing a stop I'm not sure what the relevance is as about 99% of streetcar transfer points in the city function that way.

 

[nfitz]

Eastbound 509 to Northbound 510 does share a stop in that they are both at the intersection. If that doesn't qualify as sharing a stop I'm not sure what the relevance is as about 99% of streetcar transfer points in the city function that way.

There's 4 different stops at that intersection. They don't share a stop.

If you are on a 509 being followed closely by a 510, then you'll probably miss it if you try and change at Spadina, by the time you cross two traffic lights.

 

[Megaton327]

There's 4 different stops at that intersection. They don't share a stop.

If you are on a 509 being followed closely by a 510, then you'll probably miss it if you try and change at Spadina, by the time you cross two traffic lights.

What do you mean followed closely by a 510? I'm talking about an eastbound 509. The 510 does not run from exhibition. Also, if the 509 and 510 don't share a stop, then neither do >99% of transfer/intersection stops in the system...so I'm not sure what the purpose of the term "share a stop" is in your eyes, but I'd say it would more logically apply to any intersection where there is an allowed transfer between 2+ TTC routes.

 

[nfitz]

What do you mean followed closely by a 510? I'm talking about an eastbound 509.

I assumed you meant westbound. Given on Queens Quay an eastbound 509 is running east and a northbound 510 is running west - I'm not sure how they'd share a stop - unless by share a stop, you mean they don't share the same stop!

The original discussion was about westbound travel on a 509, and I noted that they only share the same stop at Rees, not Spadina (or else you risk missing the 510 behind you, if you have to cross the street twice to get from the various stops at Spadina/Queens Quay). Though as pointed out, if you do go to Spadina, you can catch a 510 that's short-turning there. (damned if you do, damned if you don't).

It's quite clear what I meant ... if you want to come here, and redefine the language already used, it will yield a different discussion.

 

[Megaton327]

I assumed you meant westbound. Given on Queens Quay an eastbound 509 is running east and a northbound 510 is running west - I'm not sure how they'd share a stop - unless by share a stop, you mean they don't share the same stop!

The original discussion was about westbound travel on a 509, and I noted that they only share the same stop at Rees, not Spadina (or else you risk missing the 510 behind you, if you have to cross the street twice to get from the various stops at Spadina/Queens Quay). Though as pointed out, if you do go to Spadina, you can catch a 510 that's short-turning there. (damned if you do, damned if you don't).

It's quite clear what I meant ... if you want to come here, and redefine the language already used, it will yield a different discussion.

Actually, I know what the original discussion was, because it was my post, where I said: "If I'm riding on a 509 and switch to the 510 at Spadina, presumably I'd have to tap again on the 510, and it would be a free transfer." You quoted that and inferred I meant westbound to northbound. I meant eastbound to northbound and clarified it several posts ago.

Again, I'm not sure what the relevance of a "shared stop" is where Presto/transfers are concerned. If anything, transfers are typically prohibited where two routes share a stop as it usually means they are parallel. The discussion being about presto taps/transfers starting when it goes live this month, and my example being switching from an eastbound 509 to a northbound 510 at that stop, they intersect there, and it's a valid transfer. Nobody cares if they have the same physical platform or not--I don't, and I strongly doubt the TTC will disallow 99.5% of the transfers that are currently allowed on their system because of some terminology you're deciding on.

 

[nfitz]

Actually, I know what the original discussion was, because it was my post, where I said: "If I'm riding on a 509 and switch to the 510 at Spadina, presumably I'd have to tap again on the 510, and it would be a free transfer." You quoted that and inferred I meant westbound to northbound. I meant eastbound to northbound and clarified it several posts ago.

Ah, so you did - for some reason it never crossed my mind one might transfer from an eastbound 509 to a northbound 510 at Spadina. My apologies.

Incidentally, this is part of the problem with using a transfer table for Presto - is that no matter what is put in, there's always more transfers that whoever sets up the table just doesn't consider.

It sill be interesting to see how transfers REALLY work, when they activate this.

Again, I'm not sure what the relevance of a "shared stop" is where Presto/transfers are concerned.

No relevance really.

If anything, transfers are typically prohibited where two routes share a stop as it usually means they are parallel.

Though that occasionally, you end up getting off a vehicle that's going out of service suddenly, they better have a way to deal with that! Typically I change at the last stop that's in parallel - never had a complaint. When everyone has had to leave the previous vehicle, typically there are so many people getting on, the next operator is well aware something odd happened, and doesn't question; but how do you program that soft knowledge into Presto - ultimately, I don't think you can, and I really can't see how they'll properly implement this without a time transfer.

(though even with a time transfer - if there's been an extreme event, and you just exceed the 2-hour window - it's not your fault you then got all tossed off the vehicle (say in an accident). Perhaps in extreme events, the driver's will just advise people not to tap on. Either way, I suspect there will be issues.

 

[Napoleon]

It sill be interesting to see how transfers REALLY work, when they activate this.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand we're moving to an electronic Presto tap to pay the initial payment and a paper transfer hybrid model for 2016. This comports with PoP on the old streetcars as well.

Implementing TTC's transfer rules are certainly possible but will certainly be a pain. It certainly will be complicated in situations of routes that partially parallel each other, short turns, or unusual service issues. It's definitely much simpler with fare-by-distance systems (e.g. Amsterdam) or fare-by-time systems (e.g. San Francisco).

 

[Megaton327]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand we're moving to an electronic Presto tap to pay the initial payment and a paper transfer hybrid model for 2016. This comports with PoP on the old streetcars as well.

Implementing TTC's transfer rules are certainly possible but will certainly be a pain. It certainly will be complicated in situations of routes that partially parallel each other, short turns, or unusual service issues. It's definitely much simpler with fare-by-distance systems (e.g. Amsterdam) or fare-by-time systems (e.g. San Francisco).

No, they've said that paper transfers for Presto will only be required if you are transferring from a streetcar to a bus, in which case you board at the front, and the driver sees and hears the machine recognize your tap then gives you a transfer. Transferring between streetcars and to the subway will, somehow, be done using only the card, no paper transfer. See here

Also, news on Presto from Brad on twitter: "Big changes to #TTC streetcars Dec. 14 when proof-of-payment (POP) goes system wide on all 11 routes. @PRESTOcard will soon follow!" So not on the 14th necessarily, as most of us were theorizing to coincide with POP, but sometime between the 14th and 31st.

 

[cplchanb]

No, they've said that paper transfers for Presto will only be required if you are transferring from a streetcar to a bus, in which case you board at the front, and the driver sees and hears the machine recognize your tap then gives you a transfer. Transferring between streetcars and to the subway will, somehow, be done using only the card, no paper transfer. See here

Also, news on Presto from Brad on twitter: "Big changes to #TTC streetcars Dec. 14 when proof-of-payment (POP) goes system wide on all 11 routes. @PRESTOcard will soon follow!" So not on the 14th necessarily, as most of us were theorizing to coincide with POP, but sometime between the 14th and 31st.

Its already being done with YRT and the rest of the GTA. The reader will be able to detect a previous tap and should in theory grant access. I would assume that once the buses all get readers it will be a simple tap. Then again this is from YRT where theres a 2hr window which apparently is still a foreign term to TTC. I'm not sure what witchcraft programming the TTC has done to ensure that only direct transfers are recognized...

 

[Kitsune]

... when doing a 509 to 510 transfer its always smart to do it at Spadina. That way you have the option of getting one of the Queens Quay short turn cars. I know people who will get on the 509 instead of a long wait for the 510 in hopes of getting one of the short turn vehicles.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Implementing TTC's transfer rules are certainly possible but will certainly be a pain

I think they may already be in use as on the weekend I took 4412 into exhibition after I tapped onto it with a presto card on rees street, the transfer it printed said it was a 510. Later when I went to get back on it after walking around the exhibition grounds i tapped on it and it gave me a red screen on the presto reader and when I tapped at the ticket machine it said I already had a valid transfer. I got off of it and onto a spadina car later and was able to get a transfer on it.

 

[dowlingm]

Wish I had seen this thread on Monday - would have meant I would only have been resigned rather than annoyed yesterday that one of the TTC stations closest to a GO stop (Main/Danforth) doesn't have any Presto facilities yet, either for passing through or purchase. Also, tried to buy a preloaded card at Union TTC during an earlier journey in the morning - nope, only one TVM has them enabled and was listed as "not available" so had to get one at the GO ticket counter.

TTC should maybe downplay Presto on streetcars etc. while you can't yet buy the frigging fare media when you need to!