Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[drum118]

Metrolinx makes up the vast majority of their business right now. Unless they can find another customer to build for, they are as good as dead when the current production finishes.

Even if ML goes to a new fleet for RER like they should, most likely be a different supplier building them unless Queen Park say they have to be built in Ontario.

Thunder Bay been on dead watch for years and the closure will see the end of the line for the plant and the workers. Even if Alstom offer workers work at other plants, very few will accept the move unless there is no future for them in TB for work.

With Quebec backing this deal, BBD plants in Quebec are well protected for work down the road.

VIA is buying US train sets and most of GO coaches will handle none electrify lines and areas, GO can go to a new model for electrify lines only as well equipment that meet the low ridership needs for service until 6-12 DD cars trains are needed. Locomotives could be US made like they are today or come off shore.

At the end of the day, other than Toronto, very few places in Canada will need a Flexity car or even support a plant 100% for new cars regardless what they are. Come 2025, who is looking for LRT systems and cars in Canada then or the next 10 years??

Alstom will have to setup a plant in the US to built LRV's there to comply with the Buy America requirement.

TTC may look at the market again for bidders on their needs of 100 more cars, once they know they can get funding to buy them than going to Alstom now. Be a smart move on TTC part to go open market for these cars.

 

[crs1026]

^I’m sure that Alstom would love to have more work for the Brampton plant when the current Toronto ML orders are done.

I’m less sure that Flexity is dead. What evidence is there that this product will be killed? It has sold well world wide. There may especially be merit in using it as the preferred TTC offering, possibly cheaper to make than a Citadis product given all the TTC clearance issues. Thunder Bay may not be the assembly point in future, but it’s a perfectly credible design until there is need to design a next generation product platform.

- Paul

 

[Steve X]

^I’m sure that Alstom would love to have more work for the Brampton plant when the current Toronto ML orders are done.

I’m less sure that Flexity is dead. What evidence is there that this product will be killed? It has sold well world wide. There may especially be merit in using it as the preferred TTC offering, possibly cheaper to make than a Citadis product given all the TTC clearance issues. Thunder Bay may not be the assembly point in future, but it’s a perfectly credible design until there is need to design a next generation product platform.

- Paul

We don't know if they are cheaper to make. BBD under-priced them. We also don't know their maintenance life cycle cost. As to which design is better, Alstom engineers can figure that out. Right now, I'm more skeptical of BBD after all the design faults and mismanagement they did.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

We don't know if they are cheaper to make. BBD under-priced them. We also don't know their maintenance life cycle cost. As to which design is better, Alstom engineers can figure that out. Right now, I'm more skeptical of BBD after all the design faults and mismanagement they did.

The experiences up here in Ottawa don't paint a very rosy picture for the Citadis either. I'm sure it's all good news for Siemens and CAF though, the s70 has been going strong for years now in lots of cities, and Boston seems to be doing okay with its new Type 9s.

 

[Steve X]

The experiences up here in Ottawa don't paint a very rosy picture for the Citadis either. I'm sure it's all good news for Siemens and CAF though, the s70 has been going strong for years now in lots of cities, and Boston seems to be doing okay with its new Type 9s.

The biggest issue seems to be the modification made to the design to fit Canadian winters in combination of unfamiliar workers assembling them for the first time. I won't be surprised even if Siemens or CAF would have a hard time either. The S200s in Calgary and San Francisco had their share of problems including decoupling, passenger getting trap by doors, etc.

For Ottawa, it also seem like RTG is doing a terrible job maintaining the trains on a defected system. Hopefully the Crosstown doesn't end up like Ottawa.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

The biggest issue seems to be the modification made to the design to fit Canadian winters in combination of unfamiliar workers assembling them for the first time. I won't be surprised even if Siemens or CAF would have a hard time either. The S200s in Calgary and San Francisco had their share of problems including decoupling, passenger getting trap by doors, etc.

For Ottawa, it also seem like RTG is doing a terrible job maintaining the trains on a defected system. Hopefully the Crosstown doesn't end up like Ottawa.

The s200s definitely, but the s70s which are the competitors here in the low floor market are long past teething pains and have been winter proven by now in places like Minneapolis.

 

[Allandale25]

Canadian Transit Update: Edmonton and Ontario - Railway Age

Work is progressing fairly satisfactorily on Edmonton, Alberta’s eight-mile Valley Line LRT, the city’s first low-floor operation. Meanwhile, LRV deliveries to major LRT projects in Ontario are proceeding more or less on schedule.

www.railwayage.com

 

[Allandale25]

Pictures posted today by Shaun Judge to this railfan Facebook group.

 

[Allandale25]

Big Ottawa LRT article in the Citizen has this passage:

The Citadis platform is indeed very reliable. But the Spirit variant had been tweaked to accommodate deep winter, among other things. The risk associated with the redesign was scarcely acknowledged by city staff. It was also downplayed by Alstom.

Inside the slow-rolling disaster of Ottawa's $9-billion LRT project

This is the story of how myriad parts of the project failed to come together as promised.

ottawacitizen.com

 

[Allandale25]

From twitter here: "Train testing is now ongoing at the EMSF; we caught this one circling the yard last week"

 

[W. K. Lis]

Currently, we have 12 trains at the EMSF undergoing testing.

In the 1950's, the TTC got several PCC streetcars from US cities. With some adjustments (IE. track gauge, removal of "segregated signage"), they served Toronto starting in the 1950's. See link.

How much of a difference is there between the Eglinton light rail vehicles and the Waterloo ION light rail vehicles? Could Toronto's vehicles be used as spares for Waterloo?

What about Ottawa's Confederation Line? Could Toronto's vehicles be used as fill-in emergency trains in Ottawa?

 

[rbt]

In the 1950's, the TTC got several PCC streetcars from US cities. With some adjustments (IE. track gauge, removal of "segregated signage"), they served Toronto starting in the 1950's. See link.

How much of a difference is there between the Eglinton light rail vehicles and the Waterloo ION light rail vehicles? Could Toronto's vehicles be used as spares for Waterloo?

What about Ottawa's Confederation Line? Could Toronto's vehicles be used as fill-in emergency trains in Ottawa?

Hmm. The most difficult is the carbody dimensions (length, width, floor height) to fit the existing clearances without leaving a gap at platforms. IIRC, ION and Eglinton vehicles are close enough dimension wise that they would probably fit. Electrical, and many other things are similar too. It would take a few months to install the ION signalling, communications, fare payment and other systems which are 3rd party items installed on the LRV.

Ottawa would trickier. Width and height match but I'm not sure about turning clearances; axel positions can require the shorter car have wider clearance at corners. Electrical would require some adjustments to adjust the voltage.

Streetcars running in a broad roadway with passengers boarding from street level have few dimension requirements. Turning radius (vertical and horizontal) was the main concern. Now we worry about gap at the platform over 4cm or under 1cm (wind can rock cars that much causing it to clip the platform edge on entry), and height differences from platform of 1cm making it tricky for wheelchairs.

 

[mdu]

Metrolinx quietly agreed to pay Bombardier $40M more for LRT vehicles

Metrolinx quietly increased the cost of its order for Bombardier light rail vehicles by about $40 million last fall, and the agency says the purchase will only become more expensive.

www.thestar.com

Sensationalized title, but some info about the cost of installing signalling systems to the Flexity Freedoms, as well as incentives and fines on the ML-BBD contract

 

[drum118]

Once again, Metrolinx has no clue how to order stuff or understand what is require when issuing a contract. Everyone ordering LRV's knows you need spare parts and that must be in the tender or request when it issues as well options for X work.

Now if TTC had that $300-500,000 late charge per day for each car, it would be well more than the $50 million they sue for and took $35 million for the delay.

I have no issue with delivery dates as it allow Metrolinx to make sure the cars ready for opening date as well the drivers are well train along with maintenance personal.

It helps to keep Thunder Bay open longer with a few workers enjoying a pay check since Kingston is not keeping pace to meet the delivery dates with the changes.

One would think Metrolinx learn something with Waterloo Region cars on the signalling system and cost to deal with the Crosstown cars before now.

Having only 2 cars ready out of the original 6 let alone the 30 cars on hand doesn't bold well for the fleet at this time.

 

[drum118]

4404 was off loaded Friday after been shipped to Quebec on October 29, 2018. That 501 days off site and they must built a replacement for it for that length of time. If it takes as long as 4406 to reenter service, it will be almost 2 years out of service.

4409 is on its way to Quebec as of Friday.

4406 back out on the service track.

4405 GPS is all over the place.

4403 was back out testing Tues and Wed this week and that now 6 days of testing.